American Bloodlines vs. European

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American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  snasapjasa on Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:27 am

I want to start a new Topic here after reading another thread on the forum; about American bloodlines vs. European bloodlines. It's a hot issue I can imagine, since the types are quite different. Here in Iceland the breed is quite young and we have a lot to learn. I'm very curious about why some American types are considered "Terrier" like. Is it because of their extreme looks or do they have...
.... different anatomy all over?
Or is it just some American bloodlines?
I recall hearing that from an American breeder, so it has nothing to do with one liking the other type more (American vs. European). I've seen many great dogs from American/European combination. But do we see the ugly ones? I've not seen one. So I'm asking you. Please feel free to feed me with knowledge.
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  Myltan on Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:40 am

Hi

Well one obvious reason that the dogs in US are sometimes, NOT always, more of terrier type is that the minis belong to the terrier group over there.
I think the most important thing, wether you like "European" or "American" type, is to keep an open mind, read the breed standard, find your own "blueprint" within the standard and use the dogs you truly believe in. If the are from blood from East or West of the Atlantic sea is not the most important thing.

Sometimes I find people are a bit hasty disguarding dogs due to the fact that they have american dogs in the pedigree.

Hope for some interesting views under this topic.

Maria

Myltan


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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  snasapjasa on Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:47 am

I find many of the american dogs very elegant. Im very interested in this topic, and maby to hear ore even see pictures from some breeders with expiriance in this level. Smile
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  Jo on Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:01 am

Can people please tell me what they mean by 'elegent' when talking about a schnauzer? To me a greyhound would be elegent, long legs, finer bone, light build - nothing I would use to describe a schnauzer.

Another thing with using american dogs - they mix the colours a lot and this can lead to poor colour.
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  Myltan on Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:43 am

Hi Jo

For me "elegant" in schnauzer is the oposite of bulky, wide skull, too short neck, poor topline and not enough angulations.
Still we have to remember that the mini still have to be a compact dog and should not have exagurated length of neck or over angulated. I think we all need to go back and read the standard now and again.

About mixing colour; Im no fan of it but it is allowed here in Sweden. That doesnt mean I have to do it, and I havn´t. In US and also in Brittain, I think, it is also allowed. I see in the pedigrees of your dogs you have quite some mixed colour dogs. What is your experience with that?

In US, as here in Sweden, you can thankfully still find breeder who have been very selective about mixing colours. But I guess the question of colour and mixing is a bit off the original topic.

Bye for now

Myltan


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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  Jo on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:24 am

I think the problem comes from mixing the p/s in with the other colours (black and b/s) and that is a mix I try not to do without a good reason or have much of in the background of my dogs but it is nearly impossible to get a dog at stud here with a pure pedigree of black or b/s. Using black dogs in a b/s breeding can help to improve colour and widen your choice of stud dogs, especially when the black dogs carry the b/s colour, it won't fade the colour or cause any other problems, I don't get black pups with white markings (except maybe the occasional small white spot on the chest). To much mixing with p/s and you loose the p/s colouring, going muddy, losing the banding or to much brown in the coat of the p/s, while the other colours can fade.

You are right, in the UK we can mix colours and it is good that we have that option otherwise the minority colours would struggle with a very limited gene pool to work from. They are all shown together as one breed too.

I think we need to be careful with the use of the term elegant and remember the dog should still have the compact/cobby look and not have any exaggerated features.

I think it will be interesting to see the dog mentioned in the other thread, if he gets trimmed in the more usual style of the european exhibitors.
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  blacknwhite on Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:45 am

Funny this topic should come up, i have a bitch who has alot of van de havenstad but also a bit of american breeding in her (black) and i have been told she looks "very van de havenstad" and my young boy i have is mostly english with a touch of american breeding-they both look different!
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  Xtravaschnauza on Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:21 am

For me, the Schnauzer is strong but elegant. The elegance comes from the shape of the ribcage (oval not round), reach of neck (moderately long but not thin) and correct proportion 1(1,1):1 of leg:elbow-to-withers. If the dog is low on the leg it is not elegant, if the dog is round in the brisket it is not elegant and if it has a short, fat neck it is not elegant.

For me, many European dogs are too low and "piggy" looking with not enough limbs and reach.

As for terrier type; there are lots of faulty fronts in the U.S. but there are faulty fronts in Europe too! In Europe, the fault tends to be round, wide fronts rather than straight ones and I think the ribcage shapes tend to be better with American lines. Also many "European" dogs tend to have too long bodies in ratio to the limb height.

What I truly dislike about most American dogs is that they are not easy maintenance. For me, even though I have high hopes for exterior quality, the dogs are sold primarily as pets and family members. I will be first to admit my dogs are not as showy as a poofy-legged creature, but I can assure they don't give me or our puppy owners a lot of work scraping off the wool or trying to get through the bush on the legs after a good long walk in the forests. You would only have to comb through the original, correct coat maybe once a month, if that. You would not even know that some people scrape off the undercoat because there is so plenty of it!

In my breeding, I try to get the best of both. The proportions and elegance in the care-free coat and pretty colour. I think dissing American dogs purely because they are American would be the stupidest thing to do. Look at the dog and judge it for its individual merits. It would be equally stupid to say all European dogs are worthless; they have a lot to offer if you know what you are doing.

One should also keep in mind that the type divide and separation between the two lines has probably saved us a lot of trouble with autoimmune diseases etc. Can you imagine a better situation than being able to cross-breed to a practically different breed altogether when combining the two lines. If that is not keeping the genepole wide and open, I don't know what is. Compared to many many other breeds where an American dog might be as closely related to your dogs as the dog nextdoor, I think we are very fortunate and we should see the great divide as an opportunity, not a threat.


Last edited by Xtravaschnauza on Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  blacknwhite on Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:58 pm

Great post!
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  snasapjasa on Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:03 pm

Xtravaschnauza wrote:For me, the Schnauzer is strong but elegant. The elegance comes from the shape of the ribcage (oval not round), reach of neck (moderately long but not thin) and correct proportion 1(1,1):1 of leg:elbow-to-withers. If the dog is low on the leg it is not elegant, if the dog is round in the brisket it is not elegant and if it has a short, fat neck it is not elegant.

For me, many European dogs are too low and "piggy" looking with not enough limbs and reach.

As for terrier type; there are lots of faulty fronts in the U.S. but there are faulty fronts in Europe too! In Europe, the fault tends to be round, wide fronts rather than straight ones and I think the ribcage shapes tend to be better with American lines. Also many "European" dogs tend to have too long bodies in ratio to the limb height.

What I truly dislike about most American dogs is that they are not easy maintenance. For me, even though I have high hopes for exterior quality, the dogs are sold primarily as pets and family members. I will be first to admit my dogs are not as showy as a poofy-legged creature, but I can assure they don't give me or our puppy owners a lot of work scraping off the wool or trying to get through the bush on the legs after a good long walk in the forests. You would only have to comb through the original, correct coat maybe once a month, if that. You would not even know that some people scrape off the undercoat because there is so plenty of it!

In my breeding, I try to get the best of both. The proportions and elegance in the care-free coat and pretty colour. I think dissing American dogs purely because they are American would be the stupidest thing to do. Look at the dog and judge it for its individual merits. It would be equally stupid to say all European dogs are worthless; they have a lot to offer if you know what you are doing.

One should also keep in mind that the type divide and separation between the two lines has probably saved us a lot of trouble with autoimmune diseases etc. Can you imagine a better situation than being able to cross-breed to a practically different breed altogether when combining the two lines. If that is not keeping the genepole wide and open, I don't think what is. Compared to many many other breeds where an American dog might be as closely related to your dogs as the dog nextdoor, I think we are very fortunate and we should see the great divide as an opportunity, not a threat.


Smile This is an nice input, and many things that i was thinking myself. Thank you
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  Margit349 on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:15 pm

@Xtravaschnauza

Really great post!!

I agree with you.

I think it's just terrible how much the European lines often be condemned.

We can still use a lot of the lines, eg German lines have extremely hard hair (the most).


There are always different opinions and there are different tastes. And that's a good thing.


But only now, because I personally like a Typ of schnauzer more than the other I can not say the other Typ of schnauzer is bad!! Sad

Because I think no matter what breeders - whether European or American line - every breeder trys in his type to breed the best dog.

Of course there are "black sheep" and there are breeders who do not care what dogs they breed. But the most breeders are honest - i hope so.

For myself i also like the american typ - i like the angulations, the head, the neck but i also like the german type for there great hair.

Every type has good things and bad things - i knew some german minis who are really scared and so on and american who are like clowns - but there is also the opposite ... there are so many differences because i think its also important how the dogs lives with you and so he become also charakter and of course grooming is also important ... dogs can look so differnent with grooming ...



The most important thing is not only the standard and the beauty of a dog, because in any case is in the eye of the beholder.

What is with the character??

How many of you think about character?

How many know for what a miniature schnauzer was breed for many years? What was his job?

Character and beauty go together for me.

A dog can still be so beautiful but without a strong character, it is not a Miniature Schnauzer for me!
A schnauzer should have a big heart.

Today, I am often ill when I see the Miniature Schnauzer are anxious, scared dog, barkers, dogs with all the new situation are simply overwhelmed, etc. Sad This hurts me!!

And it's not unique I've seen some of these dogs.

Is that a Schnauzer? For me, the answer may be just no!

This is my opinion.

For me, a Schnauzer should not be angry or bitter, no - he should be confident, open to new things and new people, a playmate for children, playful, funny, a friend for life but that does not even if a Miniature Schnauzer defending his family when it really matters!!

Sometimes there are dogs who are very beauty and also Champignons but they are also working in obidience or agility or make much sport with there owners - thats great.

But it's all a question of time people can not do anything with there dogs - but they should be able to do everything if they like!


Last edited by Margit349 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:49 pm

Xtravaschnauza

I think you must have a picture in your head,what you want to see about a schnauzer and that is what you must try to breed,and if you have there used an american dog than you must do it.

If you look at my Gomez,he is not the best dog,he is also al little bit sraight in the front,but Dyma or Fenna are very good in the front,and Dyma walks closely in the back and Gomez walk great in the bach,so for me it is a very good combination.
I also look at my female,what she need,must have the male......

And it is very difficult,what is what.....if we al read the standard,then one will say that is for me staight and that other think that is not straight....
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Re: American Bloodlines vs. European

Post  tonda on Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:39 am

It´s hard I think all is about breeders and their feelings and standard is out of game. At shows I didn´t see judge who will judging in all things like standard saying. In standard you can see that there is not allowed white coat in pepper salt or any spots - can you show me pepper salt schnauzer without white colour or white spot??? The coat must be harsh but on the legs the coat has tendency to be not so harsh - OK I can see some of dogs with really harsh coat in germany but why all breeders aren´t using dogs from Germany??? What is harsh coat??? One judge say this coat is hars and the next one it´s soft - where is true????
I think all is about people but many times I read something about American type - holy cow who is in this type in this age??? Yes we can see an terrier type but there is a lot of things about grooming and so on what doing from many dogs the ones with straight shoulder - but can you say he is not OK when you see only photos??? Straight shoulder can you see from movement - OK it´s true but not from photo... I think we have better schnauzers thanks american bloodlines and it´s why many breeders are using it. Many times I was at shows in Austria, Germany and saw dogs without neck and angulation behind with not so long head and so on I think all of us know this type and do you think it´s a good way for breed??? In this time people wants dogs who are nice looking and beg your pardon the typical german type is not nice looking... not so nice like european type... YES schnauzers aren´t about coat but about next things but if you will see old type without coat - holy cow you´ll say ok I see what I saw before but it´s still not so nice, but if you will see the european one you´ll say oh nice one with nice topline, neck angulation and so on... Yes in america there are many faults but it´s in Europe too there is only question what faults are better??? You can see super bloods in america without faults and you say oh no it´s ugly and when you will see them in our grooming you´ll say only WOW because grooming is very important part of this question... In america breeders must have schnauzer in "terrier type grooming" for shows because schnauzer are in the terrier group and grooming must be close to terriers and it´s one of the problems...
I think we have better character thanks americans blood - the old german type is Yaping to all and is little nervous I know it and I met many dogs from old bloods and do you like it??? I think the little clown is the best dog for family life...
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