hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Go down

hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:35 pm

I would just like to say hello to everyone.
And from below you will see I'm in strong favor of supporting the rights to dock and crop.
Recently I was at a dog show and information was being handed out on crop and dock from a K9 Alliance group. I have a few links that i have found being posted through Canada,.
I just thought that if I did not hear about these things than maybe other breeders have not heard this as well. So I find it of great importance to pass this along to fellow breeders.

Sorry I'm from Canada and I did not even know this was going on its always done so quietly.

Here are a some postings from Canada on the CVMA Dock crop and due claw ban.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?ui...02&topic=13877
http://k9alliance.com/articles/Pet_L...egislation.pdf
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...surgeries.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswi...g-surgery.html
http://dogkisser.blogspot.com/2010/0...tion-bans.html

THIS LAST POST IS ABOUT SAVING OUR BREED STANDARDS> THAT DOCKING CROPPING AND DEW CLAW REMOVAL ARE MORE THAN JUST COSMETIC THEY ARE OF GREAT IMPORTANCE TO OUR FUTURE WELFARE OF THE BREED CONCERNED> eg. tail amputations at later age, ear infections #1 canine claim at vet clinics. Dew claws ripped and torn. I say that if we can prevent any of our future canines from suffering any of these problems down the line than I will continue to dock and crop and dew claw removal with the future welfare of my breed concerned.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/sto...aw-removal-ban

please read as many as you can because when Canada fails maybe the US will be the next target.

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  blacknwhite on Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:02 pm

I live in england where it is illegal to crop or dock and i think neither of these features being left natural have been detrimental to a dogs health in the miniature schnauzer. Infact i love natural tails and ears Smile
avatar
blacknwhite


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:17 pm

blacknwhite wrote:I live in england where it is illegal to crop or dock and i think neither of these features being left natural have been detrimental to a dogs health in the miniature schnauzer. Infact i love natural tails and ears Smile
Reputable breeders may disagree with you on that. I for one do not want to take a risk with any of my puppies suffering continous ear infections or any extra grooming time on the table than necessary. A pet owner that has only to trim one or two dogs already knows the the time involed in grooming, some may not even groom their own pets but send them to the groomer once a month. A goog groom will take you to an hour thats an hour that hat said dog must stand at attention not relaxing in the least. You add Dew claws and uncropped ears and an undocked tail you can add at least another 1/2 to 45mins of grooming time. Now this poor dog must stand for up to 2 hrs just to be groomed properly. How is this fair to any animal. I say that if all this can be prevent at such a young age that it is in the future welfare interest of the breed concerned that they be docked cropped and dew claws removed. Many people know how dew claws can become crueled and imbedded in coat. they are of no use to a Canine.
this is just my opinion I hope that others share my point of view.

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  Jo on Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:16 pm

Very Happy have to disagree with you. Cropped ears and natural ears take no difference in time to groom. Tails can be groomed with the dog sitting and relaxing.

natural ears are no more likely to get infections then cropped ears.

There are reputable breeders in many countries that have dogs with natural tails, ears and dew claws and these dogs are prefectly healthy, living lives as pets, succesful show dogs or sports dogs.


I was surprised you have only recently heard about the proposed bans in Canada about this, it has been in the pipeline for a couple of years at least, that I know of.
avatar
Jo


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:39 pm

Don't see you saying anything about Dewclaws. I guess you must still remove them. You know that Dewclaw removal is considered cosmetic as well. But on the other hand cat de clawing is not on the list of cosmetic surgeries.

I don't want to argue with you about docking and cropping I know you views on the subject being against and mine for being for. What I would like to say is that the CVMA should really take a look at what they are calling cosmetic and should realize that these procedures are an importance to both canine and owner future welfare interests in the breed concerned.

In stead of my opinions here are facts that docking and cropping are in the welfare interest in the breed concerned.

This one is actual letters from individuals that have seen trouble with tails normally docked.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker

This one is about the results of ban on various breeds.
http://k9alliance.com/articles/Pet_Law_and_Legislation.pdf

this one is photographic evidence of tail damage.
http://k9alliance.com/photos.html

this is a hygiene related issue
http://k9alliance.com/point3.htm

Preservation of Breed standards
http://k9alliance.com/point5.htm

And if that is not enough to think about, and you want to read more. Go to this link the petition its self and read why many others are signing to stop the VMA's in furthering their ban and aid in lifting bans already in place.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  Jo on Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:03 pm

We had all the pro and con arguments when the UK went through all this before the docking ban came in 3 years ago.

I didn't express my opinion on docking, cropping and dew claws!

Cropping has been banned in the UK since we banned dog fighting, dew claws we can still remove. I have lived with dogs both with and without dew claws, with and without tails and have groomed imported dogs who were cropped, so I have experience of the full range of 'looks'.

Is debarking also on your list?
avatar
Jo


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:30 pm

this is not my list its the CVMA's list.
If it where my list debarking and cat declawing spayed and neutering yearly vaccines would be on mine.

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  Alberto on Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:56 am

concerned 4 future wrote:Don't see you saying anything about Dewclaws. I guess you must still remove them. You know that Dewclaw removal is considered cosmetic as well. But on the other hand cat de clawing is not on the list of cosmetic surgeries.

I don't want to argue with you about docking and cropping I know you views on the subject being against and mine for being for. What I would like to say is that the CVMA should really take a look at what they are calling cosmetic and should realize that these procedures are an importance to both canine and owner future welfare interests in the breed concerned.

In stead of my opinions here are facts that docking and cropping are in the welfare interest in the breed concerned.

This one is actual letters from individuals that have seen trouble with tails normally docked.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker

This one is about the results of ban on various breeds.
http://k9alliance.com/articles/Pet_Law_and_Legislation.pdf

this one is photographic evidence of tail damage.
http://k9alliance.com/photos.html

this is a hygiene related issue
http://k9alliance.com/point3.htm

Preservation of Breed standards
http://k9alliance.com/point5.htm

And if that is not enough to think about, and you want to read more. Go to this link the petition its self and read why many others are signing to stop the VMA's in furthering their ban and aid in lifting bans already in place.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

IMHO we CAN call them cosmetic because after years of docking & cropping stop (even if in Italy you are free to do it or not) I didn't experience with any of my dogs problems of tail damage or ear infections - my dogs lived all happy lives with their natural ears, tails and declaws. And honestly I don't think that those things have anything to do with preservation of breed standards, because european experience shows that dobermanns, rottweilers, schnauzers etc... can be good specimens of their breed even if fully natural.
avatar
Alberto


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  Jo on Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:02 pm

and if we talk about preservation of breed standards, why have the dogs changed so much in type over the years? Are the dogs of today truely what the original writers of the breed standards had in mind?
avatar
Jo


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:36 pm

Just because you have not had a problem does not mean that others have not. I just posted information showing you that tail damage does exist.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker You can not speak for others although we all like to try.
I have stopped using my opinions and like you have based my information on what I have encountered through breedings. What i didn't learn about from hands on experience I was sure to research.

. Research from post ban countries have
indicated dramatic decreases in births of pups of previously docked and/or cropped breeds. An
Australian study of number of births of docked breeds pre ban and post ban shows a significant
decrease in number of births over 16 normally docked breeds. As of May 2007, the average
decrease over the 16 breeds was 42%. The drop in doberman pinscher births alone was 82%.
(2) A post ban aftershock will put many of our breeders out of the dog fancy world and many of
these cropped and/or docked breeds at the risk of extinction.
I'm assuming the research is being done in UK as well as other banned countries.
Maybe our schnauzers are not not in danger, but other breeds are. I tried to get the exact % of schnauzers affected but was unsuccessful.

Proof of tail injuries decline births, I'm assuming that people want the Breed to be bred to the original standards. Or no longer can employ these breeds to continue as a working dogs, function or risk injury.
I know others feel the same as I or else the numbers on the petition would not be going up.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  Alberto on Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:32 pm

concerned 4 future wrote:Just because you have not had a problem does not mean that others have not. I just posted information showing you that tail damage does exist.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker You can not speak for others although we all like to try.
I have stopped using my opinions and like you have based my information on what I have encountered through breedings. What i didn't learn about from hands on experience I was sure to research.

. Research from post ban countries have
indicated dramatic decreases in births of pups of previously docked and/or cropped breeds. An
Australian study of number of births of docked breeds pre ban and post ban shows a significant
decrease in number of births over 16 normally docked breeds. As of May 2007, the average
decrease over the 16 breeds was 42%. The drop in doberman pinscher births alone was 82%.
(2) A post ban aftershock will put many of our breeders out of the dog fancy world and many of
these cropped and/or docked breeds at the risk of extinction.
I'm assuming the research is being done in UK as well as other banned countries.
Maybe our schnauzers are not not in danger, but other breeds are. I tried to get the exact % of schnauzers affected but was unsuccessful.

Proof of tail injuries decline births, I'm assuming that people want the Breed to be bred to the original standards. Or no longer can employ these breeds to continue as a working dogs, function or risk injury.
I know others feel the same as I or else the numbers on the petition would not be going up.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

Sorry but I can speak also for someone else as I am active member in the Italian Schnauzer Pinscher Club since 1990 and always in contact with many other breeders of my own breed in Italy and abroad, but never heard from them about these tail damages.

Again, here in EU we experienced before all these things - and before that many said and wrote what you are writing, but after many years we are still here alive and kicking and our breeds too, healthier as never before thank to the progress in health screening. And if your concern is to have a fall in the request of puppies of previously-docked breeds, well, if they change their mind just for the tail I would say they are not serious fanciers of the breed...
avatar
Alberto


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:51 pm

Alberto wrote:
concerned 4 future wrote:Don't see you saying anything about Dewclaws. I guess you must still remove them. You know that Dewclaw removal is considered cosmetic as well. But on the other hand cat de clawing is not on the list of cosmetic surgeries.

I don't want to argue with you about docking and cropping I know you views on the subject being against and mine for being for. What I would like to say is that the CVMA should really take a look at what they are calling cosmetic and should realize that these procedures are an importance to both canine and owner future welfare interests in the breed concerned.

In stead of my opinions here are facts that docking and cropping are in the welfare interest in the breed concerned.

This one is actual letters from individuals that have seen trouble with tails normally docked.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker

This one is about the results of ban on various breeds.
http://k9alliance.com/articles/Pet_Law_and_Legislation.pdf

this one is photographic evidence of tail damage.
http://k9alliance.com/photos.html

this is a hygiene related issue
http://k9alliance.com/point3.htm

Preservation of Breed standards
http://k9alliance.com/point5.htm

And if that is not enough to think about, and you want to read more. Go to this link the petition its self and read why many others are signing to stop the VMA's in furthering their ban and aid in lifting bans already in place.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

IMHO we CAN call them cosmetic because after years of docking & cropping stop (even if in Italy you are free to do it or not) I didn't experience with any of my dogs problems of tail damage or ear infections - my dogs lived all happy lives with their natural ears, tails and declaws. And honestly I don't think that those things have anything to do with preservation of breed standards, because european experience shows that dobermanns, rottweilers, schnauzers etc... can be good specimens of their breed even if fully natural.


Did you read any of the information posted how can you say you have never heard of tail injuries when I just posted you writen and photo graphic evidence. What more do you need. The dog on your front door step bleeding or wearing a harness to prevent its tail from wagging.
And what about the information on the extinction of various breeds. Before you quote this reply I hope you can give me a link to some information you have to base your opinions on. And I do not blame you for your point of view. If I had only the information that was present at the time of the ban I may be on your side. Because of the information I have found relating to a very important topic for Breeders" Breed Standards." I'm able to feel confident that I have my breeds future welfare in mind when docking and dew claw removal come into mind.

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:07 pm

Alberto wrote:
concerned 4 future wrote:Just because you have not had a problem does not mean that others have not. I just posted information showing you that tail damage does exist.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker You can not speak for others although we all like to try.
I have stopped using my opinions and like you have based my information on what I have encountered through breedings. What i didn't learn about from hands on experience I was sure to research.

. Research from post ban countries have
indicated dramatic decreases in births of pups of previously docked and/or cropped breeds. An
Australian study of number of births of docked breeds pre ban and post ban shows a significant
decrease in number of births over 16 normally docked breeds. As of May 2007, the average
decrease over the 16 breeds was 42%. The drop in doberman pinscher births alone was 82%.
(2) A post ban aftershock will put many of our breeders out of the dog fancy world and many of
these cropped and/or docked breeds at the risk of extinction.
I'm assuming the research is being done in UK as well as other banned countries.
Maybe our schnauzers are not not in danger, but other breeds are. I tried to get the exact % of schnauzers affected but was unsuccessful.

Proof of tail injuries decline births, I'm assuming that people want the Breed to be bred to the original standards. Or no longer can employ these breeds to continue as a working dogs, function or risk injury.
I know others feel the same as I or else the numbers on the petition would not be going up.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

Sorry but I can speak also for someone else as I am active member in the Italian Schnauzer Pinscher Club since 1990 and always in contact with many other breeders of my own breed in Italy and abroad, but never heard from them about these tail damages.

Again, here in EU we experienced before all these things - and before that many said and wrote what you are writing, but after many years we are still here alive and kicking and our breeds too, healthier as never before thank to the progress in health screening. And if your concern is to have a fall in the request of puppies of previously-docked breeds, well, if they change their mind just for the tail I would say they are not serious fanciers of the breed...

2 breeders are hardly the whole world! Even if it where more it does not constitute the majority, You can not even get a whole country to agree on the subject.
And as for the your last comment "if they change their mind just for the tail I would say they are not serious fanciers of the breed.." One could also look at it another way. Maybe these people are serious fanciers of the breed and chose to give it up , or go else where,because the breed can no longer offer what was needed in function with out injuries, before the ban came into effect.

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  Gast on Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:07 pm

I am from Germany and we are not allowed to dock, crop or remove dew claws for many years now. Here our Schnauzers must stay natural..and I am very often on dog shows and have a lot of contact to other breeders...and for sure!!!! And maybe some people cannot believe it, but here no natural Mini has any problem about beeing natural...also my own dogs, never had problem with ears, tails or claws. For sure it´s a question of taste, if someone like it cropped or not, but it´s not necessary for their health, thousands of natural eared and tailed dogs cannot be wrong!

Gast
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  MsBritmor on Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:51 pm

If you wanted support in your battle against proposed Canadian anti-docking/cropping legislation, you really came to the wrong place because this is primarily a European forum, and most of those countries have had bans in place now for a few years. Even if some of these individuals fought their bans in the beginning, they have now adapted to the changes, and are probably content for the most part with the new looks of their dogs.

You might try getting the Americans on your side since most of us still dock and crop. I, for one, no longer crop, and wouldn't miss cropping at all, although I do enjoy seeing a nice ear crop on a pretty head. I do not care for tails, however, and do not understand all the commotion about docking shortly after birth when it is such a minor procedure at that time. I wonder how many people who are pushing for this legislation still circumsize their male offspring after birth... a few people seem to have their heads on backwards... or stuck up another portion of their anatomy.

_________________
Karen Brittan, Minnesota, USA
Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
avatar
MsBritmor
Administrator
Administrator


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:12 pm

MsBritmor wrote:If you wanted support in your battle against proposed Canadian anti-docking/cropping legislation, you really came to the wrong place because this is primarily a European forum, and most of those countries have had bans in place now for a few years. Even if some of these individuals fought their bans in the beginning, they have now adapted to the changes, and are probably content for the most part with the new looks of their dogs. Well then could you please direct me to a forum that may be interested in this subject. It has never been my intentions to stir up old stories. Here in Canada this is current news and is in the process.

You might try getting the Americans on your side since most of us still dock and crop. I, for one, no longer crop, and wouldn't miss cropping at all, although I do enjoy seeing a nice ear crop on a pretty head. I do not care for tails, however, and do not understand all the commotion about docking shortly after birth when it is such a minor procedure at that time. I wonder how many people who are pushing for this legislation still circumsize their male offspring after birth... a few people seem to have their heads on backwards... or stuck up another portion of their anatomy.
Its nice to hear from some with the same ideas as mine. I have never put it quite so frank though. So if you would please direct me to a forum that maybe interested than please do so.

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  MsBritmor on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:07 am

If I were you I would go to Yahoo, type in Schnauzers, and join as many groups as you felt moved to do. The schnauzer lists on Yahoo go on for pages. Don't forget the Dobermans, German Pinschers, Pitbulls, Briards, Boxers, Miniature Pinschers, etc.

_________________
Karen Brittan, Minnesota, USA
Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
avatar
MsBritmor
Administrator
Administrator


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:51 am

Well I'm off to a new forum it has been interesting to say the least.
I do respect all that has been said to me.
I'm sorry if I brought up old history in the UK, But it's current here in Canada.
I just wish more people would stop jumping the gun and focus on what really is going on in our Purebred dog world. We are no longer united as one. We are now consist of small groups with different ideas but the same interest the welfare of dogs.
Sure would be nice to work as one because in the end if we divide ourselves while be easy pic-ins for the Peta or the BSL ends all breeding and dog ownership.

Its not been quite what I was hoping for but life can't always be prefect..

"May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I am"
Jean

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  blacknwhite on Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:26 pm

I'm sorry you feel your crusade has been unsuccessful here and thata people have not listened to your views, i think people here have just tried to show you that its not all bad, yes there is no denying some dog breeds do suffer tail damage (spaniels especially) and i guess in those breeds they may wish they could still dock at times but i think the countries which have already banned cropping and docking have come through the other side and see how happy their dogs can be "naturally".
No doubt if in england there was never an out and out ban on docking people probably wouldnt have stopped but it is banned so people have learnt to accept tails and are finding them no real bother. I have never owned a docked mini schnauzer, all 4 of mine have natural ears and tails, 2 with dew claws, 2 without and i love their tails and wouldn't dock out of choice een if i was allowed but i guess its what we are all used to, change can sometimes be hard to accept but i think the many countries/breeders accross europe who no longer dock or crop are proof it can work as a natural breed.
I wish you success in your campaigning Smile
avatar
blacknwhite


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  concerned 4 future on Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:08 pm

I thank you for being so kind. i'm the creator of that petition and I put my heart and knowledge into it. I'm a Doberman Breeder and I have seen the trouble with tails in our breed as well. Boxers seem to be right behind the Doberman with tail injuries. No these breeds did not suffer from a tail injury through work, There's just happens because they are a very happy breed. The injuries that did occur are from just being a happy go lucky dog at home.

Again thanks for your time the UK is not an enemy of mine I fully understand what you went through and I'm now just going through it myself in Canada.
Jean

concerned 4 future


Back to top Go down

Re: hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum