Black and silver

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Black and silver

Post  Jo on Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:03 pm

I thought it would be interesting to learn more about the history of this colour. It is of course recogised in the Miniatures and appears every so often in Giants, is it also in the Standard Schnauzers?

Was it a colour that was there from the start of the development of the 'breed' or has it been introduced at a later date by using other breeds to increase/decrease size from the Standard?

Should b/s in Giants be a recognised colour (I understand it was in America until the 1950's when it was refered to as 'black and tan' - does anyone know what that colour was removed from the American breed standard?)
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Re: Black and silver

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:29 pm

From the 1935 book, The Miniature Schnauzer, by Anne Fitzgerald (Paramoure) and her 1953 book, The Complete Miniature Schnauzer:

The three foundation sires in the Miniature Schnauzers were Ch. S. Peter v Westerberg, black, whelped Nov. 1902, Ch. Prinz v Rheinstein, black with yellow-gray markings, whelped July 1903, and Seiger Lord v Dornbusch, yellowish-gray, whelped Nov. 1904. ..... Prinz v Rheinstein was younger than Peter but older than Lord. Although he has more tail male descendants than both the others together, he died comparatively young, when only three or four years old. He seems, however, to have been bred to many, if not most, of the best bitches of his day.

The breed is said to be descended from the Moorland Dog, an older contemporary of the Bronze Age Dog, whence were derived the present day terrier breeds, the Spitz, and the Poodle. The term "pinscher" was used in Weiss' German translation of Youatt's works on dogs (1852) to denote terriers in general, and the breed was variously designated as Rauhaar Pinscher (rough-haired terrier), Rattenfaenger, (rat catcher), and Schnauzer. The latter name, which was finally adopted, (derived from Schnauze, meaning snout), was due to the stubby whiskers which distinguish the breed. Fitzinger, the Viennese zoologist (1802-1884), has described the Wire-haired Pinscher as a cross between the Dog of Boulogne and the Spitz. A cross of German black Poodle and wolfgrey Spitz upon old German pinscher stock, something over eighty years ago (**remember this was written in 1935!) is said to have produced the modern breed. This old pinscher stock is said to have been black and tan or rehfarbig (fawn). It probably formed, as well, the foundation of the Doberman Pinscher, which was developed by Otto Goeller of Apolda, from stocky black dogs with greyish-yellow points and thick, light undercoats, which were in part descended from drovers' dogs brought with cattle from Wurttemberg. Crossed with English Black and Tan terriers, the result was a smooth-coated, racy black and tan dog. The Schnauzer, derived from similar stock, probably took his mixed grey color from the Spitz side, and the rough coat and whiskers from the black Poodle. ......

The Miniature Schnauzer is an offshoot of the Medium or Standard Schnauzer, produced by selection and crossing. They have been bred distinct for over forty years, and were exhibited at least as early as 1899. German authoriities state that the Miniatures come from a cross between the Medium Schnauzer and the Affenpinscher, and that no other blood was employed. The Affenpinscher is a breed which averages several inches smaller than the Miniature Schnauzer. It has a short, rather turned up face, rather long, soft coat, and is usually black in color, though black and tan, yellow, and red occur. There is no material on its origin available in English, but appearances would indicate some Griffon, at least. (*Note from Anne: I have lately seen the statement in an English paper that the reverse is true, and Affenpinschers were used in the formation of the Brussels Griffon.) About the turn of the century, Miniature breeders were trying to eliminate the characteristic head and soft coat of the Affenpinscher, while retaining the small size which it brought to the cross. A few attempts to improve type and color by breeding Medium Schnauzer bitches to Miniature dogs and inbreeding the resultant bitch puppies to the sire's side are recorded in the German stud books, but almost without exception they are too far back to be traceable today.

********************************************************

I know Tim Bradach whose Giant, Am/Can CH Narnia Black And Tan Sheepstead (Robin), was Winners Dog at the Canadian National Specialty in 1981. The color was removed from the American Breed Standard shortly after that. At the time I heard comments that the breed club felt that the color no longer existed, but there were other reports that the color was removed due to personal reasons (politics). Only the people involved really know the truth of the matter.

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Re: Black and silver

Post  Jo on Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:56 am

It's interesting to look at the breed history of the Affies, the 'Affie' could be as tall as 18 inches and was more often then not a red or yellow colour.


affenpinscher.com says....
The stud book beginnings of the Affenpinscher is found in Volume 1, 1902, of the Pinscher-Klub which was founded in 1895; there were 14 registrations. The Pinscher Klub registered them at that time as a RAUHHAARIGE ZWERGPINSCHER (or rough-haired miniature pinscher), probably with the thought of separating the rough-haired Pinschers into two groups (large and small) in the breeding. Nevertheless, in the pictures in the first German breeding book, these dogs resemble the Affenpinscher more than the Schnauzer. Classes for the Rauhhaarige Zwergpinscher were first held at a show in Germany in 1889.
The label of “Affenpinscher” was used for the first time at a show in Frankfurt am Main, 1902. The Judge Hamecher emphasized how the exhibits had “beautiful apple heads."


and

In the stud book of the PK, volume II, 1903-1907 we find registered for the first time the Affenpinscher as a separate breed. This volume has 14 entries; six Affenpinschers out of Munich, three out of Saxons, three out of the Rhineland, one out of Holland and one out of the Alsace. The colours of these first Affenpinschers are: 4 yellow, 3 red yellow, 2 black, 2 black and grey stitched (or patterned?), 1 black grey, 1 grey brown, and 1 without the colour stated.


the black and grey stitched could well be what they now call 'black and silver' (black with a greying pattern over the body) a very different colour pattern to the schnauzers with the silver 'points'


On the American Mini Club site we can find the 1884 breed standard for the schnauzer - would the weight imply it is a miniature breed standard and not standard schnauzer as the title suggests?

1884 Breed Standard
Standard Schnauzer - Rauhhaarige Pinscher

Has an average weight of 3.5 to 10 kg. (8 to 22 English pounds) and beyond. He is light, sinewy, and elastic. He has a harsh, wiry coat and carries his tail upward. His attitude is inquisitive and audacious. He has a restless temperament, is continuously vigilant without making unnecessary noise, full of courage without being quarrelsome or rapacious. He is attached to his master, loves horses and has stamina on long tours. A skilled ratcatcher and mouser and, consequently, is in great demand as a stable dog. His head is not too heavy, rather long. Flat skull slightly narrowing to the front. Pronounced stop. The bite is close fitting. Ears are cropped. The neck is of medium length, strong, well-arched, the skin fitting tightly at the throat. His coat is as wiry as possible. On the snout are moustaches, whiskers, and bushy eyebrows.

Color: red-yellowish or gray-yellowish. His feet and underline usually lighter or gray-white.

Further also allowed blackish, metal-gray, or silver-gray.
Either unicolored or with yellow-brown marks on the eyes, the snout, and the legs. Also unicolored flaxen or gray-white or white with black spots.

Nose is always black; eye and nails are dark.

Interesting to see red and yellow getting the first mention in the colour section with the other colours mentioned in a separate paragraph - and no mention of 'prefered colour'
was 'blackish' actually a solid black or more a dark p/s colouring? could blackish with yellow-brown points be a black and silver standard??? I've never seen a photo of one that colour.
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Re: Black and silver

Post  MsBritmor on Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:50 am

Jo wrote:On the American Mini Club site we can find the 1884 breed standard for the schnauzer - would the weight imply it is a miniature breed standard and not standard schnauzer as the title suggests?

1884 Breed Standard
Standard Schnauzer - Rauhhaarige Pinscher

Has an average weight of 3.5 to 10 kg. (8 to 22 English pounds) and beyond.

I think there must be a typo here somewhere, but I am not sure where. I do not believe the American Miniature Schnauzer Club has a 1884 schnauzer breed standard on its website. The Wire-haired Pinscher Club was formed here in 1925, and included both Standard and Miniature Schnauzers. The separate clubs were organized in 1933. Americans don't deal with kg, but with lbs. (pounds).

I would guess that Standard Schnauzers may well have been a bit smaller back then, too, just as the Minis were. That would make cross-breeding the two easier. Mini size back then was 10 to 12-1/2" for females, and 10-1/2 to 13-1/2" for males. (Now 12-14".)

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Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


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Re: Black and silver

Post  Jo on Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:23 pm

link to the 1884 breed standard on a website run by the AMSC http://www.schnauzerweb.com/history.html

If anyone is interested in the science behind the colours

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/agouti.html shows the link between the agouti (p/s colour) and black and tan (or b/s as it is in schnauzers)

1884 Schnauzer - Germany
Color: red-yellowish or gray-yellowish. His feet and underline usually lighter or gray-white. Further also allowed blackish, metal-gray, or silver-gray.
Either unicolored or with yellow-brown marks on the eyes, the snout, and the legs. Also unicolored flaxen or gray-white or white with black spots.

1907 Schnauzer - Germany
"All salt-and-pepper color shades or similar bristly equal color mixtures, and solid black". "Faults - all white, speckled, brindled, red, or bran colors".

The link above would explain why yellow was a part of the early breed history as it is also on the agouti gene.

So does the colour appear or has it appeared in the standard size?

Interested to hear about this from european breeders.
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Re: Black and silver

Post  MsBritmor on Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:39 pm

Jo wrote:link to the 1884 breed standard on a website run by the AMSC http://www.schnauzerweb.com/history.html

Thank you for that link, Jo; I was not aware that site existed.

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