saber tail?

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Re: saber tail?

Post  sjannella on Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:29 pm

i got nothing ,no e-mails nothing
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Re: saber tail?

Post  MsBritmor on Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:36 pm

MARANT wrote:Of course, I can glue ears. But I can not "fix" a broken tail and remove the hernia without medical operation Surprised

Yes, in that case, if the puppy was purchased as show-potential, it needs to be replaced or returned with money back. I cannot stress enough the value of having written contracts between buyer and seller, with everything spelled out completely to both parties' satisfaction. It is foolish for either person to do otherwise. Since this situation has evolved into such a mess, I would assume that there is no such written contract in place as we probably wouldn't have even heard about it if there had been. I hope all of you are learning from this experience.

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Re: saber tail?

Post  Rianne on Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:52 pm

Terrible situation, the female looks even more worser than the male, poor little thing!!
I'm very curious how Pachino will fix this situation....

Erg vreemd, onbetrouwbaar en onbeschoft dat hij niet reageert!!
Ik schrok ontzettend van de foto's van het teefje!!!
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Re: saber tail?

Post  Jo on Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:53 pm

I'm going to stick my neck out a little here - while I agree that neither pup is show quality, I wonder...

1. does Pachino show his dogs? Looking at his website, none seem to have any titles or show wins mentioned. Does he know what a show dog is like, compared to a pet dog?? What is the general quality of the show dogs in Serbia?

2. looking at the picture of Jacomo at 50 days old, from experience with my own pups, I would expect the tail of that pup to curl over more - tails seem to take a few months before you can be sure how curled they will be and they only seem to get worse, I haven't seen any straighten up again later.

3. the hernia on the bitch, may not have been noticed by pachino, some slip in and out and aren't always visible or feelable. On the photo is looks small and shouldn't cause any problems if left as it is. I agree the tail should have been mentioned as it was broken (if you buy a car and it gets a huge scratch along the side before delivery, the showroom should tell you!!).

4. the ears on both pups may not be fixable by taping, they look a little 'wild' for that.


I agree that neither are show quality and should not have been sold as such. I would hope that Pachino would at least return the cost difference between pet and show quality and the cost of transport
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Re: saber tail?

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:04 am

MsBritmor wrote:Chest spotting is not visible on these photos. Both puppies have low-set ears, but when I lighten the photos enough to really see the puppies, the one labeled puppy #2 has slightly better (higher) ears. When he alerts, they will probably come up a bit higher. There is, however, one major difference between the two puppies that will not change. Puppy #2 has parallel head planes, while the other one does not. If the question is which photo is the actual puppy, that alone should determine which one he is.

I mean the white mark on the chin.
But you can see only in de eyes of these puppy's....and I not say these are the same puppy's.
And the female,ow my god.....she is so sweet in her eyes,but how can a breeder sell such a dog as a showdog and for breeding.

I hope to get the answer from Panchino himself.
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Re: saber tail?

Post  MsBritmor on Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:51 am

D'el casa di Vita wrote:I mean the white mark on the chin.

When I made that first post, I had somehow missed some of the earlier posts about this situation. (I have read them all now.) As a photographer, though, I will say that black dogs are difficult to photograph, and the lighting can change the appearance of some things.... like the spot on the chin... since one of those headshots is much brighter than most of the others which I had to lighten to view better. The lightness of that particular photo, and then the increased reflection on the black coat, make the white look bigger, I think. The darker photos make it appear smaller and less noticeable.

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Re: saber tail?

Post  MARANT on Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:56 am

I cannot stress enough the value of having written contracts between buyer and seller, with everything spelled out completely to both parties' satisfaction. It is foolish for either person to do otherwise. Since this situation has evolved into such a mess, I would assume that there is no such written contract in place as we probably wouldn't have even heard about it if there had been. I hope all of you are learning from this experience.


I make always written contract between me and buyer! And even if the buyer does not want a contract, I still do and I insist on signing. At least, for myself!

And if we in Europa sell and buy our puppies way too young... yes, you are right.
But! I can not even imagine that I sold a puppy as "show" with hernia or with broken tail! Evil or Very Mad
And we sell and buy as "show promising" puppies, I mean, I can not ensure "show quality" by 2 months old puppy - it's just silly.

But in this case, these 2 nuancen - hernia ( about which nothing has been said!) and broken tail - it's all exclude even a show-prospect!

It feels like a dishonest business Evil or Very Mad
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Re: saber tail?

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:09 pm

It is sad that Mr. Panchino still didn't give any reaction Sad
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Re: saber tail?

Post  sjannella on Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:19 pm

the pups were 3 months old when I got them.
I have the puppies received on December 1
the puppies were born on September 9.
Mr. Pachino, have absolutely nothing came forward, I still Gemälde this man several times, but nothing I am told.
I think this is terrible, no show dog pedigree and no papers no nothing.
The pedegrees had to be made was his last answer.
I give him a chance to make it right.
I'm not hateful, but would be very happy if I viinden half could get the money back.
then everything is solved and we talk about nothing.
he does not, I will continue and will verhaa throughout with photographs and already Schnauzer magazines around the world turn.
I'm very gullible and I trusted his word on this Pachino.
He will really be doing what, because his good name until I make on the ground broken.
Jacomo and jasmine, are very sweet puppies,
for the owner of the bitch and I find this sad.
the ears are not perfect Jacomo I can live with that can always happen that they are not really nice, but a curly tail, which is just as important to me.
but well I hope this Pachino a reasonable and decent man like me this is mind, and reach a solution and come.
and we reached a good way to deal with each other. Sad Sad Sad

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Re: saber tail?

Post  MsBritmor on Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:49 am

sjannella wrote:the pups were 3 months old when I got them.
I have the puppies received on December 1
the puppies were born on September 9.
Mr. Pachino, have absolutely nothing came forward, I still Gemälde this man several times, but nothing I am told.
I think this is terrible, no show dog pedigree and no papers no nothing.
The pedegrees had to be made was his last answer.
I give him a chance to make it right.
I'm not hateful, but would be very happy if I viinden half could get the money back.
then everything is solved and we talk about nothing.
he does not, I will continue and will verhaa throughout with photographs and already Schnauzer magazines around the world turn.
I'm very gullible and I trusted his word on this Pachino.
He will really be doing what, because his good name until I make on the ground broken.
Jacomo and jasmine, are very sweet puppies,
for the owner of the bitch and I find this sad.
the ears are not perfect Jacomo I can live with that can always happen that they are not really nice, but a curly tail, which is just as important to me.
but well I hope this Pachino a reasonable and decent man like me this is mind, and reach a solution and come.
and we reached a good way to deal with each other. Sad Sad Sad

Why did you not accept one of the offers that Pachino made?

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Re: saber tail?

Post  sjannella on Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:21 pm

I'll tell you what and how.
I would first like Pachino not provide refunds.
These are the two puppies of different owners.
1 Pachino Jacomo offered to sell, I can keep the money and he will give me when a good show quality puppy, the puppy free to send to the Netherlands.
okay, I'd like that, but knows how to do a show quality Pachino should look like, and I'm afraid of.
2 Pachino offered both puppies to sell him the money to send what we would get for the pups. Pachino would then send two show quality puppies, I'm definitely not this guy more money.
3 Pachino wants the two puppies back at my expense and he will have two show quality puppies send.
I had a good solution to give 400 per puppy everyone is happy, but do not want this Pachino.
I wrote him an email that I no longer wants to be seen what puppy I got from this man.
If I can get any money back there is only one thing about that and I just have to wait for a new black puppy.
3 generations of black, good ears, good tail and show quality.
I will also mail this Pachino, and whether we get out of it I'll post here.
regards sjannella



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Re: saber tail?

Post  MsBritmor on Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:21 pm

Question:

What are the general costs of a pet-quality puppy and a show-potential puppy in Europe? Is there only one price, or are there different prices for pets and better-quality dogs? Or does it just depend on the individual breeder how much he charges?

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Re: saber tail?

Post  MARANT on Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:14 pm

Or does it just depend on the individual breeder how much he charges?

In Germany mostly so.
It depends of the level of defects, of course.

For example, hernia.

I'm doing an operation for puppy and I sell for normal price.
Or I give discount price on the cost of this operation (but it's not so expensive).

If one of my puppy has many defects, how hernia + broken tail + bad ears - so I can sell it cheaper, but not for half price.

But each breeder sells its own way and prices are different.

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Re: saber tail?

Post  sjannella on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:12 pm

i have news
Pachino, and I have a deal
I get him a new puppy.
when the time comes we will cooperate very closely to see the pups and discuss what I want.
I am satisfied with this solution.
That means that Pachino a good person.
everything is now resolved and everyone is happy.

thank you Pachino
Smile
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Re: saber tail?

Post  Pachino on Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:38 am

Sjannela,
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Re: saber tail?

Post  Pachino on Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:53 am

Questions for MARANT

MARANT wrote:
ALL OTHER WASTE. FRAUD. IT IS SO IN EUROPE?

In Germany is it so. Most german judges are very strictly about the tail form.

Recently in the rings here are not seen the dogs with "bad" tails, they simply have no chance to win Surprised
how do you explain this








Last edited by Pachino on Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: saber tail?

Post  Pachino on Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:05 am

or may not understand my English



like you said to me


like you said to Mrs. britmor?


Last edited by Pachino on Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: saber tail?

Post  snasapjasa on Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:50 am

Very nice that you worked out a good salution:)
Congratulations to you both:)
I like this Smile
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Re: saber tail?

Post  MARANT on Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:54 am

@ Pachino

I can not explain all that happened here.
Because of its owners and breeders attend the forum, I have no right to say anything about someone else's dog.
You need to ask the owners please, how they succeeded.

But on the homepage I see another pictures also with normal tail

http://www.vom-datzetal.de/attachments/Image/Aktuelle%20Seite/Bremen_2010_056.JPG

I think incorrect to discuss someone else's dog and how he got his title.
Especially because I did not never see this dog alive.


But of course, I can show you a lot of other dogs with not very good tails, which have a title German Champion.
And as I say, the dog with such a tail can get "excellent" in Germany, but he will never be a "show star" here.
So says german judges. But sometimes there is judged also foreign judges from abroad, for which a form of tail is not important. This is also a variant.

I have one female with bad tail, she also has her own title "German CH PSK".
About her I can honestly say - it was not German judges. And once it was a german judge, but the another dog in our competiton had a more serious defect - the bite. Of course, between the incorrect bite and the bad tail an adequate judge chooses the bad tail. This can be the second variant.


Two other breeder wrote you the same thing about the tails in Netherlands. Do you not want to ask them, how the dogs with bad tails gets Dutch champion title ? Or are you interested only in the situation in Germany?

There is no rule without exception....


And what are you mean with my english knowledge? Embarassed
Why this "red marking"?
English is not my native language and I can german good, but english not so good. To write in English, I use a dictionary.
Of course, it is difficult fo me to explain some complex questions in English, so I can write or understand something wrong, sorry.


I tried to write in a normal, polite tone without any hints. And I want to ask you the same thing.

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Re: saber tail?

Post  Jo on Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:01 pm

Marant, i think your English is certainly good enough to understand! Smile I do sometimes find Pachinos posts sometimes are very difficult to decipher
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Re: saber tail?

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:58 pm

Great that the problem is solved.

Everyone knows that not all judges are the same.
And I don't know the owner of this black and silver,but i think this onwer can be agree that it is very difficult to win with a dog that has not the best tail.

Here in holland we don't want to see a bad tail,but on the winner in amsterdam won a black and silver with a very very bad tail!!!
But the judge was coming from sweden,and i think there is no problem with such a tail.
So this jugde make no problem what this kind of tail....and let this dog win.

But then something else, what other people think and wants.....is maybe not the things that i want. Wink
I had buy Gomez,a dog with a bad tail,but if I must do it again,I will never buy a dog with a bad tail....
This is what I want,and want other people think about this,is there problem.
I must look at my dog al times,and if if I don't like something,I don't want it.
So everybody is different,so everybody has different opinions Wink

But there will be always a solution Smile
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Re: saber tail?

Post  MARANT on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:22 pm

Thank you, Jo, for your compliment about my english thank you
I try to do my best!
But if I'm not sure I always prefer ask again. And I don't see anything wrong with that, if I just warn that my English is not perfect.
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Re: saber tail?

Post  MARANT on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:23 pm

D'el casa di Vita wrote:Great that the problem is solved.

Everyone knows that not all judges are the same.
And I don't know the owner of this black and silver,but i think this onwer can be agree that it is very difficult to win with a dog that has not the best tail.

Here in holland we don't want to see a bad tail,but on the winner in amsterdam won a black and silver with a very very bad tail!!!
But the judge was coming from sweden,and i think there is no problem with such a tail.
So this jugde make no problem what this kind of tail....and let this dog win.

But then something else, what other people think and wants.....is maybe not the things that i want. Wink
I had buy Gomez,a dog with a bad tail,but if I must do it again,I will never buy a dog with a bad tail....
This is what I want,and want other people think about this,is there problem.
I must look at my dog al times,and if if I don't like something,I don't want it.
So everybody is different,so everybody has different opinions Wink

But there will be always a solution Smile


I totally agree with you Smile
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Re: saber tail?

Post  FiJu on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:01 am

Hello Marant,

thats are not the same dogs. the picture from your link is our female "Free Spirit vom Datzetal"

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Re: saber tail?

Post  MARANT on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:36 am

Hallo, tut mir Leid, ich dachte das ist der gleiche Hund.
Ich habe weder den Rüden noch die Hündin gesehen, deswegen falshes Bild.

Ich finde beide toll und sie sehen wirklich ähnlich aus

Smile
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Re: saber tail?

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