YOU MUST READ IT...

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YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:24 pm

Hi Friends !

Today 23.01.2011 we went to International Dog Show Milano ( Italy ), under judge : GUIDO PEROSINO.
We brought our young boy Arcturus Vis a Vis " Pablo " ( Repitition's Life Of Crime x Ayla Vis a Vis ) there. He was in Junior Class because he is 10 months old.
In his class there were 3 dogs: him, Scedir Dare Devil and Frodo Di Casa D'Andrea.
The judge gave to Pablo a wonderful judgment, but judge gave to Pablo 3° Excellent because he have too much short body. Surprised Sad
It's the most incomprehensible comment I ever hear.
But mr. guido perosino doesen't know he has done a compliment to my little Pablo. I am very happy to can have him with me ... Cool ... he is more than a beautiful boy ... he have really no defects .... and I am proud to say that I have a SHORT and COMPACT boy ... until today I didn't know that to have a short dog was a fault ... Surprised ... however I am sure my little Pablo will have a wonderful future in front of him ... Very Happy

Here some photos of Milano:


from left: Scedir Dare Devil 1° EXC. - Frodo Di Casa D'Andrea 2° EXC. - ARCTURUS VIS A VIS 3° EXC.

ARCTURUS VIS A VIS

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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  lillyvis on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:52 am

I can just laugh about this kind of comments..this judge should read the breed standart again..he is very outstanding and beautiful anyway!
Kisses from me and his sister Lilly
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:43 am

lillyvis wrote:I can just laugh about this kind of comments..this judge should read the breed standart again..he is very outstanding and beautiful anyway!
Kisses from me and his sister Lilly

Yes, I, too, can just laugh about these comments ... but I can't accept judgment like this ... so untrue ... so unjust ...
But, however I'm proud of him ... and I'm so sure he will give to us a lot of satisfaction on Show Rings ... Very Happy

Give from me a BIG kiss to his little sister and kisses to you. Cool

Merylisa
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:50 am

Have you told the judge that you did not agree with his judgment??

Somethimes is a dog to short so he can not move very well,maybe is that what the judge mean???
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:10 pm

D'el casa di Vita wrote:Have you told the judge that you did not agree with his judgment??

Somethimes is a dog to short so he can not move very well,maybe is that what the judge mean???

No, Judge wrote on Pablo's judgment that his movement was excellent. He gave to Pablo an excellent judgment, excellent head, neck, super strong body, excellent angulations, excellent coat .... so all excellent, only the body too much short.
A so incomprehensible judgment. Sad


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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Jo on Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:22 pm

Is he still square though? On some of the photos you posted of him in another thread he looks to be taller then he is long = to short.
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:45 pm

Jo wrote:Is he still square though? On some of the photos you posted of him in another thread he looks to be taller then he is long = to short.

Pablo is absolutely in size. And still I never have seen a Miniature Schnauzer too much short.
In Italy you can see only super longs body on Miniature Schnauzer black and silver.
I think a Judge should prefer a compact and short dog instead one long.
And however I think sometimes judgments seems like a lie because Sunday to Milano there were not comparisons between Pablo and the other Miniature Schnauzers black and silver.
He was absolutely the BEST ... but this is only my opinion.

Merylisa
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:54 pm

Tje judges let not always the best win...that is showing...you must let this go,and go up to the next.
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:00 pm

D'el casa di Vita wrote:Tje judges let not always the best win...that is showing...you must let this go,and go up to the next.

Yes Marian, you are right. I know it.
I hope next time will go better.

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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  lillyvis on Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:06 pm

yes we are meeting sometimes judges who are not fair..some people must come along with a cat on 3 legs and will win everytime because of relations or of other reasons, some are only blind some have no idea of judging...but it´s also nice, if you know you did the best and your dog looked awesome, so I think other people hopefully have seen this..
American type is sometimes very difficult to show, here in Germany is the worst countrry for showing nice dogs...so many times I failed...urgly dogs in the rings but who won, the most urgly Wink This is the prefered type here Smile keep on going your way
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:51 pm

lillyvis wrote:yes we are meeting sometimes judges who are not fair..some people must come along with a cat on 3 legs and will win everytime because of relations or of other reasons, some are only blind some have no idea of judging...but it´s also nice, if you know you did the best and your dog looked awesome, so I think other people hopefully have seen this..
American type is sometimes very difficult to show, here in Germany is the worst countrry for showing nice dogs...so many times I failed...urgly dogs in the rings but who won, the most urgly Wink This is the prefered type here Smile keep on going your way

Hi Karolina !

I think Judges should be more coherent. Everyone have his own opinion, not thinking about Breed Standard.
Pablo has done only 2 Dog Shows for now, both International Dog Show. On the first he was in Puppy Class, and he won 1° Very Promising - BOB Puppy, and the Judge gave to me a lot of congratulations for Pablo. Judge sayd to me he is wonderful.
Judges should be more coherent and they cannot give every so different judgments.
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  des matins de cristal on Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:34 am

forget this show and look on future ! you have a very beautiful male so let Milano 2011 away ...
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:43 pm

des matins de cristal wrote:forget this show and look on future ! you have a very beautiful male so let Milano 2011 away ...

I will try to forget Milano 2011 Show ... but every champion have to loose once in his life ... Cool
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Jo on Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:31 pm

Frostmourne wrote:

I think Judges should be more coherent. Everyone have his own opinion, not thinking about Breed Standard.
Pablo has done only 2 Dog Shows for now, both International Dog Show. On the first he was in Puppy Class, and he won 1° Very Promising - BOB Puppy, and the Judge gave to me a lot of congratulations for Pablo. Judge sayd to me he is wonderful.
Judges should be more coherent and they cannot give every so different judgments.

I am going to answer this with my judges hat on!

Each judge will have their own idea of what dog will fit the breed standard and what they find acceptable and what they wouldn't want to accept, this is true even amongst breeders - just look at the discussion on here about ears and what each person finds the ideal is!

Each dog must be judged as it appears on the day, a dog may not be showing itself well or a dog may really be on his toes and just attract the eye of the judge more that day. I've seen dogs from ringside that have had you wondering what the judge was thinking to place them highly, then when going over that dog you can see just why the judge liked that dog. I've seen some fantastic looking dogs that have disappointed when you then find out it was all grooming and the dog underneath wasn't what it promised from a distance - so commenting on a judges placement when you haven't judged that class may not be fair to the judge.

Sadly yes, there are also those times when a judge is biased towards a dog for other reasons but I would like to think this happens less then the gossip and rumours would make out.

At the end of the day, a judge is only human and it would be very boring if the same dogs were always placed the same each time out - you may as well stay home and get the judge to just post out the awards! Very Happy
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:53 am

Jo wrote:
Frostmourne wrote:

I think Judges should be more coherent. Everyone have his own opinion, not thinking about Breed Standard.
Pablo has done only 2 Dog Shows for now, both International Dog Show. On the first he was in Puppy Class, and he won 1° Very Promising - BOB Puppy, and the Judge gave to me a lot of congratulations for Pablo. Judge sayd to me he is wonderful.
Judges should be more coherent and they cannot give every so different judgments.

I am going to answer this with my judges hat on!

Each judge will have their own idea of what dog will fit the breed standard and what they find acceptable and what they wouldn't want to accept, this is true even amongst breeders - just look at the discussion on here about ears and what each person finds the ideal is!

Each dog must be judged as it appears on the day, a dog may not be showing itself well or a dog may really be on his toes and just attract the eye of the judge more that day. I've seen dogs from ringside that have had you wondering what the judge was thinking to place them highly, then when going over that dog you can see just why the judge liked that dog. I've seen some fantastic looking dogs that have disappointed when you then find out it was all grooming and the dog underneath wasn't what it promised from a distance - so commenting on a judges placement when you haven't judged that class may not be fair to the judge.

Sadly yes, there are also those times when a judge is biased towards a dog for other reasons but I would like to think this happens less then the gossip and rumours would make out.

At the end of the day, a judge is only human and it would be very boring if the same dogs were always placed the same each time out - you may as well stay home and get the judge to just post out the awards! Very Happy

Excuse me, maybe I don't understand what do you want to mean, but if what I understand is right, your argument is really stupid. Because the Breed Standard isn't an opinion. Yes, you are right, the Judge is only an human, but his judgment is unappealable and so it should be as fair as possible. I'm happy to shake the hand to the breeder of a dog better than mine, at the end of a beautiful Show.
But now, after so many years of Dog Shows, I'm tired because too much times I saw to win so ugly and undeserving dogs in Italy, so I'm asking to myself scratch .... would those dogs have won the same with me ? I don't know ...
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:17 pm

[quote="FrostmourneBut now, after so many years of Dog Shows, I'm tired because too much times I saw to win so ugly and undeserving dogs in Italy, so I'm asking to myself scratch .... would those dogs have won the same with me ? I don't know ...[/quote]

But that is what Jo want to tell you...
Everybody likes adifferent dog.
And everybody knows that judgement is not only judging dogs but also the people behind the dogs.
That is showing...and if you can't agry with this you do'n must showing...
You know that you don't must entry show with this judge.

In every sprt is it so...My sister was also with horses...on the concours on the club she never won....but outside the club....with other judgment....
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Alberto on Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:03 pm

Jo wrote:
Frostmourne wrote:

I think Judges should be more coherent. Everyone have his own opinion, not thinking about Breed Standard.
Pablo has done only 2 Dog Shows for now, both International Dog Show. On the first he was in Puppy Class, and he won 1° Very Promising - BOB Puppy, and the Judge gave to me a lot of congratulations for Pablo. Judge sayd to me he is wonderful.
Judges should be more coherent and they cannot give every so different judgments.

I am going to answer this with my judges hat on!

Each judge will have their own idea of what dog will fit the breed standard and what they find acceptable and what they wouldn't want to accept, this is true even amongst breeders - just look at the discussion on here about ears and what each person finds the ideal is!

Each dog must be judged as it appears on the day, a dog may not be showing itself well or a dog may really be on his toes and just attract the eye of the judge more that day. I've seen dogs from ringside that have had you wondering what the judge was thinking to place them highly, then when going over that dog you can see just why the judge liked that dog. I've seen some fantastic looking dogs that have disappointed when you then find out it was all grooming and the dog underneath wasn't what it promised from a distance - so commenting on a judges placement when you haven't judged that class may not be fair to the judge.

Sadly yes, there are also those times when a judge is biased towards a dog for other reasons but I would like to think this happens less then the gossip and rumours would make out.

At the end of the day, a judge is only human and it would be very boring if the same dogs were always placed the same each time out - you may as well stay home and get the judge to just post out the awards! Very Happy

Perfectly said Jo, I am completely agree with you about this! Smile
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:51 pm

D'el casa di Vita wrote:[quote="FrostmourneBut now, after so many years of Dog Shows, I'm tired because too much times I saw to win so ugly and undeserving dogs in Italy, so I'm asking to myself .... would those dogs have won the same with me ? I don't know ...

But that is what Jo want to tell you...
Everybody likes adifferent dog.
And everybody knows that judgement is not only judging dogs but also the people behind the dogs.
That is showing...and if you can't agry with this you do'n must showing...
You know that you don't must entry show with this judge.

In every sprt is it so...My sister was also with horses...on the concours on the club she never won....but outside the club....with other judgment....[/quote]

Hi Marian !

You are totally right ... Judges very often looks people behind the dogs ...
But this is not correct because Judges MUST give to each breeder the right way to improve the Breed.

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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:12 pm

[quote="FrostmourneBut this is not correct because Judges MUST give to each breeder the right way to improve the Breed.

[/quote]

That's life Wink
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:57 pm

D'el casa di Vita wrote:[quote="FrostmourneBut this is not correct because Judges MUST give to each breeder the right way to improve the Breed.


That's life Wink [/quote]

I know it, but it's sad .... Sad
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Jo on Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:32 pm

Thank you Alberto, I'm glad you understand my 'stupid' post!


Judges very often looks people behind the dogs ..
.

Frostmourne, I didn't say judges often put up ugly dogs because of who is holding the lead - I said that I hope this rarely happens. You need to get your hands on every dog in a class to make that judgement call!! I have seen 'ugly' dogs and when they have been judged, I find there is actually a lot to like about the dog, just as I have seen 'pretty' dogs who aren't what they promised to be when looking beneath the groomed coat.


As for the breed standard being open to interpretation - it certainly is!! Yes, there is a written breed standard and judges are judging with that in mind BUT we will each read that breed standard and picture the perfect dog for that breed standard in a different way. Would you agree that amongst one breed there are many different 'types' within that breed - is only one type correct and everyone else is breeding the wrong 'type' of dog? Look at the 4 colours of minis, are they all the same 'type' (excluding colour!) or have the breeders with an interest in a particular colour used their interpretation of the breed standard as they breed each generation of that colour and produced correct dogs that just happen to look a little different??


But this is not correct because Judges MUST give to each breeder the right way to improve the Breed.

Why??? Is a breeder so unable to tell where their dogs good and bad points are? If that is the case, maybe that person shouldn't be breeding at all until they have gone away and understood the breed standard.
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Frostmourne on Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:55 pm

Jo wrote:Thank you Alberto, I'm glad you understand my 'stupid' post!


Judges very often looks people behind the dogs ..
.

Frostmourne, I didn't say judges often put up ugly dogs because of who is holding the lead - I said that I hope this rarely happens. You need to get your hands on every dog in a class to make that judgement call!! I have seen 'ugly' dogs and when they have been judged, I find there is actually a lot to like about the dog, just as I have seen 'pretty' dogs who aren't what they promised to be when looking beneath the groomed coat.


As for the breed standard being open to interpretation - it certainly is!! Yes, there is a written breed standard and judges are judging with that in mind BUT we will each read that breed standard and picture the perfect dog for that breed standard in a different way. Would you agree that amongst one breed there are many different 'types' within that breed - is only one type correct and everyone else is breeding the wrong 'type' of dog? Look at the 4 colours of minis, are they all the same 'type' (excluding colour!) or have the breeders with an interest in a particular colour used their interpretation of the breed standard as they breed each generation of that colour and produced correct dogs that just happen to look a little different??


But this is not correct because Judges MUST give to each breeder the right way to improve the Breed.

Why??? Is a breeder so unable to tell where their dogs good and bad points are? If that is the case, maybe that person shouldn't be breeding at all until they have gone away and understood the breed standard.

I know how must be a correct Schnauzer, in fact if a dog isn't perfect I give him-her like a Pet Family Dog. Often I bought dogs at 3-4 months of age and when they are growed up, I gave them GRATIS ... because they had some defects, and I didn't want to use them for breeding.
And I know very well Schnauzer's Standard, but the Dog Shows is for having the right way for the breeding, not for winning awards ... for your opinion why someone should do so many sacrifices for going to Dog Shows only for a cup and for finding often Judges that don't know the Breed they are judging ?
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:18 pm

Frostmourne wrote:I know how must be a correct Schnauzer, in fact if a dog isn't perfect I give him-her like a Pet Family Dog.

So you say that you have the perfect schnauzers??? Wink

That can't you know.... Wink

You know the discusion from Sjannella and Panchino...both had diffenent thougt about the breed...and the all are in de standaard...
There are no perfect dogs,so what i think is importent,i maybe not what you think....
Thats is what Jo want to tel you Wink
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:41 pm

Frostmourne wrote:
Because the Breed Standard isn't an opinion.

No, a breed standard is not an opinion, but we all interpret it's words differently. FCI Breed Standard As an example, FCI Standard says:

"Back: Strong, short and taut.
Loins : Short, strong and deep. The distance from the last rib to the hip is short to make the dog appear
compact."


Yet it also says:

"IMPORTANT PROPORTIONS :
· Square build in which the height at the withers is nearly equal to the body length.
· The length of the head (measured from the tip of the nose to the occiput) corresponds to half the
length of the topline (measured from the withers to the set on of the tail)."


Short here, short there, SQUARE, yet two head lengths to the topline. That seems contradictory to me, and I can easily see how each can interpret it differently.


Last edited by MsBritmor on Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Karen Brittan, Minnesota, USA
Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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Re: YOU MUST READ IT...

Post  Jo on Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:31 pm

Frostmourne wrote:
I know how must be a correct Schnauzer, in fact if a dog isn't perfect I give him-her like a Pet Family Dog. Often I bought dogs at 3-4 months of age and when they are growed up, I gave them GRATIS ... because they had some defects, and I didn't want to use them for breeding.
And I know very well Schnauzer's Standard, but the Dog Shows is for having the right way for the breeding, not for winning awards ... for your opinion why someone should do so many sacrifices for going to Dog Shows only for a cup and for finding often Judges that don't know the Breed they are judging ?

What do you get out of showing your dogs? Why do you go to shows?

Dog Shows is for having the right way for the breeding - please explain what you mean by this
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