How is this possible?

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How is this possible?

Post  sternenhoch on Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:44 pm

Hi all, I was looking a little around and now I'm lost... as my knowledge of genetic says that from two black and silver couldn't be any other colour - how this pedigree is possible? How could be born black from almost full b/s pedigree after two b/s parents?



BLACK DOG

And here is the pedigree: LINK

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Here is one more question

Post  sternenhoch on Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:59 pm

Here is something alike - two pepper and salts and black out of them. As far as I remember agoutti in p/s is dominant against black and if there should be black puppy one of the parents must be black, isn't it true? Correct me, please, if I'm wrong.

Here is the dog:


And here the pedigree



And than I found white from two pepper and salt - I thought that white is a mutation from black colour ...

WHITE DOG
PEDIGREE

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Re: How is this possible?

Post  tonda on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:43 am

Hi very interesting question. Many times I read about it and many times I read if both parents are b&s the pups must have this colour too. But I don´t know it´s only what I read and thanks it I know Wink But it´s true that I saw very very nice b&s female with really super coat and colour but some poeples said me "look at her colour on the some parts of the body - she isn´t b&s but p&s." But this female was registered like b&s and maybe with the time she "change colour" to p&s and what owner can do in this moment??? Rolling Eyes
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Re: How is this possible?

Post  Jo on Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:34 am

http://www.alpats.com/whites.aspx

From the above site

It must be noted that 'White' originated from all three standard colors. In Poland from 'Black/Silver', in the USA and Czechoslovakia from 'Salt/Pepper' and in Germany and other European countries from 'Black'.
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Colour

Post  Myltan on Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:49 am

Hi

As far as whites I got the information that they are a "hidden" coulour. In Sweden I know if one litter, sire white and dam black/silver and the whole litter was salt/pepper. Must meen the white male is hidden s/p, or what? At least he must carry s/p gene but not show it.

To get a black puppy you must have at least one parent black.

Genetics and colour is a mystery but interesting.

M

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Re: How is this possible?

Post  Randi's Ushabti on Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:11 am

You can maybe ask those questions directly to Uli. She is a member of this forum, and I'm shure she will provide you all the answers you need Wink

http://schnauzer.dogboard.net/profile.forum?mode=viewprofile&u=64
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Re:

Post  sternenhoch on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:07 pm

Myltan wrote:Hi
In Sweden I know if one litter, sire white and dam black/silver and the whole litter was salt/pepper. Must meen the white male is hidden s/p, or what? At least he must carry s/p gene but not show it.
M

This I could understand, because it jumped back to basic colour, which is p/s, resp. agoutti, thats my explanation to ps from all the big mixings - as soon as its too big mix of colours in pedigree than is usualy comming back to ps, which is very yellow - simply back to agoutti. But than the white one has to have ps gen.

About my question - I don't need to ask Uli, she already putted this on web and it's breaking my knowledge about what will happened if these and these are connected. That's why I'm asking all of you if you saw something alike.
You know we have Twister which is after two blacks, thats ok, both parents had gene and it happened. Now I'm telling to people which want to use him on b/s that they shouldn't worry, he cannt produce any blacks with b/s female. Than I'm looking at pedigree where almost all are black and silver and the child is black. Than two p/s where p/s should be dominant and black again.
I know genetic is one big question mark, but some rules are working there... or not?

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Re: How is this possible?

Post  Jo on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:19 pm

I had a litter last year from a white - b/s mating. The pups were mainly b/s or black with one p/s, so I wouldn't say you have to have black as one of the parents.
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Post  sternenhoch on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:27 pm

Yes, of course with whites because white is behaving as black in colour crossing, as white is just a colour mutation from black.
Than after white and p/s you could have black and usualy there are p/s and blacks with white gen, if there is putted next white on it, that youre getting fresh white litters. But from two black and silvers, this is the more important question for me ... and wherever I'm looking to the genetic articles, everywhere is written that from two b/s is only b/s comming. silent

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Re: How is this possible?

Post  Silfurskuggar on Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:32 am

Myltan wrote:Hi

As far as whites I got the information that they are a "hidden" coulour. In Sweden I know if one litter, sire white and dam black/silver and the whole litter was salt/pepper. Must meen the white male is hidden s/p, or what? At least he must carry s/p gene but not show it.

To get a black puppy you must have at least one parent black.

Genetics and colour is a mystery but interesting.

M

Hi, I don't know if you are refering to my litter Smile But for you all, the sire has salt/pepper sire and there is also salt/pepper behind the dam Smile
On the other hand I have often wondered if those whites with a little yellow on their back comes from salt/pepper, I have looked closely at their hair and found out that those yellow hairs are indeed banded like in salt/pepper !!!!


An intresting link about colors http://www.miniature-schnauzer-australia.com/white_miniature_schnauzer.html
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agoutti

Post  sternenhoch on Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:42 am

Of course there is yellow in pepper and salts - it's agoutti like by wolves, so the colour should be yellow with black, but thanks to chinchilla factor is the yellow parts getting white. It's taking away the yellow, but by agoutti is the yellow normal.

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Re: How is this possible?

Post  Esther on Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:37 am

sternenhoch wrote:Hi all, I was looking a little around and now I'm lost... as my knowledge of genetic says that from two black and silver couldn't be any other colour - how this pedigree is possible? How could be born black from almost full b/s pedigree after two b/s parents?

Look at this pedigree: http://www.zwerg-schnauzer.info/dog.php?screen=1&id=132

There is GLADBATCH WHITE SNOWDROP OF BUSCO, white female from two Black and silver dogs.

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white

Post  Morningstar on Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:23 am

White is like a coat of paint. White can be covering for s/p, b/s or black. The white gene can be carried for many generations before 'popping' up unexpectedly in a litter where no white is found in the pedigree since 'gleb' in the original dogs used to create the breed. The 'white' gene can be expressed from Red to brownish to yellowish to pure white. Whites with s/p parents can have banding that causes colorations from red to white. You see the yellowish-tan coloration on many whites, it is in general because they are white covering for s/p. White covering for black should be fairly uniform in color, with little variation, the same for white covering for b/s, except for possibly some clear banding in the eye brows. When you mate a white with a colored dog, you can get all 4 colors unless the mating is with a homozygous s/p, b/s or black, then the litter will be all s/p, b/s or black. In the last 3 years I have seen a black from 2 white parents and s/p from b/s parents. This I have seen online and have no reason to doubt the parentage of the litters. I consider the like mating to like and getting like puppies, to be a 'rule of thumb'. That doesn't mean thats what you will get, but that is what you expect. If I mate a white covering for s/p to a black that is the result of a b/s and a white covering for black mating, I can expect to get all 4 colors, but may wind up with all s/p! The easiest to understand explanation of color genetics I have found, is at Alpat's Miniature Schnauzer website. The biggest misconception of white is that it is some kind of 'mutation' arising from only black color minis. Whites can be born from every color combination, all it takes is for the parents to be carrying the 'white' gene.

I do mix my whites with other colors. I must to improve my line's confirmation(Thank you Karen for the advise you gave me years ago!!). The tan, or yellow, or even red coloration on most whites is a normal variation and should not be penalized in any manner. You can get what I call an 'ice white' from any color combination mating. Ice white is pure white, without banding or any other shading present. If I just bred for 'ice white' color, my line would never improve in confirmation. I think breeding for movement and confirmation are more important than some 'shading' on my white's shoulders and spine. Star's The Full Monty, a white male of my breeding, is at Bambur's in Sweden and I am anxious to see how he does in confirmation this next spring. His dam is JU.A Int. Ch., JU.A Ch. Star's Sirius Leap of Faith, her photo is my avatar. He is my first white to leave the USA.

I don't know if I helped or confused on this issue.
happy happy

Teresa Crisman
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