I just have to say this....

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I just have to say this....

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:04 pm

I don't mean to offend anyone, but this has been really bothering me. I see too many photos of dogs here where the dog is overstretched in the rear, making it look either over-angulated or straight in the stifle. Sometimes they are posting in the front (front legs are too far forward and not directly under the shoulders). Dogs would look much better if they were set up correctly. Draw a line straight down from the dog's butt, and his rear toes should just touch that line.

I know; I know. My photos aren't that great either.... but they were the best I could get at the time as we were trying to take the photos without touching the dogs. When one is setting the dog up for a photo (as on a table, for instance), the feet should be perfectly placed to make the dog look his best. This particularly holds true in the show ring. Don't give your dog faults that it may not have. (And now I want to change my photos *grin*.)


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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  ravenstot on Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:32 pm

Thank you so much, I started to look again to all my (and others) pictures. New look )))))).
I have one question, is there any connection to dogs anatomy? If dog has bad rare angulation, should this rule work? And what about overangulated dogs?
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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  MsBritmor on Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:28 am

Frankly, the way most of you Europeans groom, it would be very hard to hide a bad rear. Why do you think we Americans leave so many furnishings on our dogs?*grin* lol! Yes, we think they are pretty, but all that hair can hide oh so very many faults!!!!! It takes a very good eye to spot those bad rears without being able to put hands on a dog. If one has a good eye and knows what to look for, it can be a bit easier to spot some of these things on a dog.

Straight in the stifle? Don't look at the front of the rear leg.... look at the rear outline of the dog's leg to see its true angulation. With hair, one can make a dog look just about any way one desires..... if one is a good groomer. The actual lines of a dog will always tell the truth.

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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  MsBritmor on Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:32 am

Oh, yes.... overangulated in the rear. If one is so blind that he cannot see that fault on a dog, I can guarantee that the dog will give himself away the moment he moves.

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Offense

Post  grandmaks on Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:35 pm

I appreciated your post. No offense taken. Very Happy

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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  AnnaD on Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:32 am

I do agree MsBritmor for some overstretch rare angulation what is the point of it. It might look nice on photo or in show stand for someone but if the dog is overnangulated what about his functionality in movement on rough surface, uneven surfase, agility and speed in running?

The angulation has its purpose just like our heels and ankles, I could not walk for long distance if me ankle would be to soft or my akkiles is to tight or lean happy happy

But I would like to add one point to this also. What about overgroomed dogs on photos ??? How much can you hide with grooming and fake colour on photos ?

If I see að photo of an excellent dog that has perfect grooming stands perfect I get doubts, there is so much that is possible to hide........

The show business is a funny business also in dog shows Sleep
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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:29 am

AnnaD wrote:

But I would like to add one point to this also. What about overgroomed dogs on photos ??? How much can you hide with grooming and fake colour on photos ?


That depends on one's interpretation of "overgroomed". Some of you Europeans might consider my way of grooming to be overgrooming, while I try to groom to the Breed Standard. If my dog is not ideal (none of them are), I try to make him look like he is perfect. I do not want to see hair flying everywhere when the dog moves, but I don't want the dog's faults to show either. (Yes, some exhibitors here in U.S. DO leave too much hair on the legs.) To me, overgrooming is removing more hair than one should.... the dog was groomed too much.

A great groomer can hide a LOT of faults! A good judge will find every single one of them once he gets his hands on the dog, but if that dog should be in a large class with many other dogs, and the judge takes one last look at the line of dogs, he may just forget what his hands felt and rely on what he can see in that lineup of dogs.... and if yours looks the best.... (We don't have written critiques in North America, although I wish we did.)

I once won a Group when the judge fell in love with my dog as he saw him stacked up on the table (before he put his hands on the dog). He liked that dog so well that he ultimately gave him Best in Show. That first look that the judge gives your dog can make your dog a winner or a loser, and don't ever let them look sloppy outside the ring... sometimes a judge will glance at the dogs before they come into the ring, and that first look can affect his opinion (although it shouldn't).

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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  AnnaD on Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:48 am

I agree totally it is a big differenci in Europe versus U.S.A and that is bad acutally if we think of import export for both parties.

Very fluffy feets is something that I think is "wrong" but it is my opinion and I cannot tell the judge to not take them over other dogs with less hair on their feets.

But it surely makea a huge different in the ring when it is large group of dogs, the fluffy one´s will stand out as their fieet looks stalked under the dogs.

After I went for Crufts 2008 and the WDS in Sweden this year I am completly convinced that judged opinion does rule in the ring not the standard for the breed. A dog cannot changed completly over night from Excellent to third prize over night. That happend in WDS both judged are listed as specialist for the breed. Dogs the won Crufts did then flunk completly on WDS but that was 1 year between.....

Show is show off no offence to all but I think judged can change so much for one breed because the dog that wins is going to be used for breeding. That we can see on one german breed at least and that is the Schafer = German shepard. Judged should be obliged to only few breeds no more then 5 and study them well no one can be judge for more then that and be an expert in all of them...... Shocked

All around judges do vote for looks more then substance and standards in all breeds. Hopefully I did not offend anyone by my opinion Cool
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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  AnnaD on Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:50 am

AnnaD wrote:I agree totally it is a big differenci in Europe versus U.S.A and that is bad acutally if we think of import export for both parties.

Very fluffy feets is something that I think is "wrong" but it is my opinion and I cannot tell the judge to not take them over other dogs with less hair on their feets.

But it surely makea a huge different in the ring when it is large group of dogs, the fluffy one´s will stand out as their fieet looks stalked under the dogs.

After I went for Crufts 2007 and the WDS in Sweden this year I am completly convinced that judged opinion does rule in the ring not the standard for the breed. A dog cannot changed completly over night from Excellent to third prize over night. That happend in WDS both judged are listed as specialist for the breed. Dogs the won Crufts did then flunk completly on WDS but that was 1 year between.....

Show is show off no offence to all but I think judged can change so much for one breed because the dog that wins is going to be used for breeding. That we can see on one german breed at least and that is the Schafer = German shepard. Judged should be obliged to only few breeds no more then 5 and study them well no one can be judge for more then that and be an expert in all of them...... Shocked

All around judges do vote for looks more then substance and standards in all breeds. Hopefully I did not offend anyone by my opinion Cool

I ment of course WDS 2008. My year is new a bit later in february sorry for the wrong year Wink
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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:16 am

If we could "rubber stamp" judges and their opinions, everything would be perfect! Unfortunately, judging is purely one person's opinion over another's, and we all value different parts of a dog differently.

I LOVE a dog with a good topline and long neck, and I want him to MOVE. I can overlook a not-so-good head and a so-so coat, but do NOT show me a dog with a bad front! Bad fronts drive me CRAZY! Hate them; hate them; HATE THEM! I absolutely cannot tolerate a dog with a bad front.

If each of you think about it, I'll bet you, too, can think of something that you also cannot tolerate in a schnauzer, and I can guarantee that many of you will come up with different things. If we all judged the same large ring of schnauzers, we could very well come up with totally different sets of winners.

Judging dogs is nothing more than one person's opinion.... and you pay for that opinion when you exhibit.

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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  AnnaD on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:22 pm

Again agree with you on this one. That is why I cannot understadn people that go totally crazy over one judgement happy happy They just go again with another judge and get either similiar result, new result or totally different one.

I can´t imagine your schnauzer doing agility with bad front, the jump would look awful and rather funny, I can see their frontlegt fly long before the rare end scary

At the end it is your dog, your breed or breeding and your responsibility what you do.....but of course there is one standard that all should have in their mind. And therefor no person can be expert and specialist for all breeds. He should be specialist in few........I can judge cows it is easy they should have 4 feets, thick clumbsy body structure, funny noise with pink colour, tits with milk in it and tail that swings pfuj and that goes for all nations for cows ....... forgott colour may vary but coat should fit tight to their body bounce But unfortunatly I have never seen cows in Australia but they should be the same.....
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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:18 pm

AnnaD wrote: of course there is one standard that all should have in their mind.

This is true, except that a breed standard is nothing more than a bunch of words, and we don't all "hear" the same thing when we read something. I don't think anyone can really understand a breed standard at all until he sees that perfect rear, that perfect front, gets his hands on that perfect head, etc. That perfect schnauzer in my mind took years to get there.... one small piece at a time. And "perfect" may not always be the same to every person.

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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  AnnaD on Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:04 am

MsBritmor wrote:
AnnaD wrote: of course there is one standard that all should have in their mind.

This is true, except that a breed standard is nothing more than a bunch of words, and we don't all "hear" the same thing when we read something. I don't think anyone can really understand a breed standard at all until he sees that perfect rear, that perfect front, gets his hands on that perfect head, etc. That perfect schnauzer in my mind took years to get there.... one small piece at a time. And "perfect" may not always be the same to every person.

So right, so right it takes time and pation and not just making puppies for sake of making them Very Happy Hand on experience isn´t that right.........and the time is not flying anywhere nowdays is it.....

That is why I say show business in dogs are strolling down the fast lane rather then take it at an even pase to get there......

So nice this thread and changing opinion with you MsBritmor thank you
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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  Xtravaschnauza on Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:11 pm

Not to mention that the description of the ideal dog is different from country to country. FCI-countries will share the same description, non-FCI countries either have their own each or share with another. Something that might be ideal for "you", will be penalized "here" and so forth.

In addition to the breed standard, the intrepretation of the standard varies. Just to give you an example, here in Finland there is intrepretation guide for the FCI breed standard, originally authored by a small group of specialist judges. High emphasis in judge training is naturally therefore placed on how they have interpreted the standard as well as train our new judges.

While the standard might be shared between two different countries, the quality, quantity as well as consistency of judges' breed specific training varies from a country to another. For instance here you will have to attend a lecture on the specific features of the breed as well as train in the showring while another qualified judge is doing the actual work. After this one would take a practical exam of judging a number of dogs and have your written critique analyzed by breed specialists. Only after you've been approved and worked your way through this official procedure can you judge miniature schnauzers.

You can understand why becoming an allrounder takes decades here in Finland.
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Re: I just have to say this....

Post  AnnaD on Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:08 am

Xtravaschnauza wrote:Not to mention that the description of the ideal dog is different from country to country. FCI-countries will share the same description, non-FCI countries either have their own each or share with another. Something that might be ideal for "you", will be penalized "here" and so forth.

In addition to the breed standard, the intrepretation of the standard varies. Just to give you an example, here in Finland there is intrepretation guide for the FCI breed standard, originally authored by a small group of specialist judges. High emphasis in judge training is naturally therefore placed on how they have interpreted the standard as well as train our new judges.

While the standard might be shared between two different countries, the quality, quantity as well as consistency of judges' breed specific training varies from a country to another. For instance here you will have to attend a lecture on the specific features of the breed as well as train in the showring while another qualified judge is doing the actual work. After this one would take a practical exam of judging a number of dogs and have your written critique analyzed by breed specialists. Only after you've been approved and worked your way through this official procedure can you judge miniature schnauzers.

You can understand why becoming an allrounder takes decades here in Finland.

Interesting input and perhaps it is the good way to train judges. Allrounder might be in order if he is ready to make that efford for decades. But let´s not forgett that what drives people on is the interest in dogs or specific breed so for an allrounder it should be more time spent in all matters if he is willing to spent the time in your method......but it is so easy to sit in front of computer and say how it should be done or judged.

For me it is this way, if I am so "lucky" to have allrounder all the time for my breed, the critic must be similiar or same 3 times. If that happens the critic is worthwhile and valid for me and I except it. But if I go for 6 shows in all of them it is allrounder and no critic is similiar and they are like black and white from show to show......I might as well take my money and flush them down the toilet Smile

I am paying for this critc and it is very expencive 4 min.......
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