Inbreeding

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Inbreeding

Post  RaggaGisla on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:32 pm

What is your opinion on Inbreeding. And what are the rules in your country in breeding mother to son, dauther to father and sister to brother?

In Iceland you are not aloud to breed from this kind of breeding.
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RaggaGisla


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inbreeding

Post  Myltan on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:48 pm

In Sweden our Miniature Schnauzer club say no higher than 6,25% . If it is higher you dont get recomendation for the litter in the club.
Swedish Kennel Club has the same recomendations but is not as harsh. We can not mate full siblings or parent/child. Half siblings, giving 14,5% gives you a notice from SKK.
If you understand swedish do visit and sign in at
http://kennet.skk.se/avelsdata/

There you can find lots of interesting info about dogs, health, litters, and even do "testmatings" on the screen to see inbreeding rate and so on.

Maria

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Re: Inbreeding

Post  Alberto on Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:44 pm

In Italy there is no limitation in the inbreeding levels, neither the Kennel Club nor the breed club check for them; you can also mate brother & sister or sire and daughter and so on...

Interesting to notice that some of the most valuable stud dogs in popular breeds come from this kind of mating; just one example, the worldwide-known italian dobermann Gino Gomez del Citone, out of brother-sister mating.

No doubt this is a very "delicate" practice, and a closer control from our Kennel Club (at least to see if the inbred parents have both the minimum health screening and are both typical specimen of their breed) would be more than welcome...
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  Myltan on Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:58 pm

I guess there are quite some oppinions about this topic. There is a thin line between the good use of line breeding and the bad effects of inbreeding. Ofcourse if you mate littermates alike in both genetics and type you will up the likelyhood of getting the type you started out with, and want. At the same time you will increese the risk of hereditary health issues. It is close to imposible to know everything hidden in the genes, healthwise.

I think it is a smart thing to be a bit careful specially at the beginning of your breeding adventure. When you get to know more about "your" lines and seen many generations from the same lines you might be a bit more bold.

It will be fun to hear more about this from the rest of the world.

Maria

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Re: Inbreeding

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:41 pm

Here in the netherlands it is not aloud to breed with any off this combination.
But we can do grandfather with grandchild.
I thought we can do,half brother en half sister,but the rules are chaning,so I don't know for sure...

Is there any site where we can calculated the %???
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  Xtravaschnauza on Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:08 pm

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Re: Inbreeding

Post  Lipgloss on Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:28 pm

Well, in Germany it's not allowed. I think you can ask for permission, but you have to really have a good reason to want to do this kind of breeding! Personally, I do think it's an awful thing to do, but that's just my oppinion. Rolling Eyes
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  Jo on Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:52 pm

The UK Kennel Club has announced that it will crack down on the small number of breeders who continue to use the practice of mating close relatives by refusing to register those puppies that are born from any mother/son, father/daughter or brother/sister mating, taking place on or after 1st March 2009. Departures from this principle will only be made in exceptional circumstances or for scientifically proven welfare reasons. Kennel Club research into the genetic diversity of all breeds in the UK is ongoing and further changes will be considered in the future, on a breed specific basis.


So we can still do grandsire/grand-daughter or aunt/nephew type matings if we chose to do so.
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  Xtravaschnauza on Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:53 pm

^ I just saw the BBC document "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" (one can find it online as well by using Google), it was quite...interesting.

Here is Finland there are no rules on this but I am quite certain any brother-to-sister or equivalent mating would be frowned upon.

Personally I worry about not only specific combinations but degeneration of the breed in general - which is an issue with all breeds but luckily not quite as bad in MS as in many other breeds. I feel that while stabilizing the type may be slower, I am not willing to accept the risks that close inbreeding will inevitably and without exception expose the offspring to. All breeders will come across some health issues if they breed long enough, but it all would feel even heavier on me if I had to question myself whether I caused any problem purely because I chose two close relatives to be mated due to my own impatience.

For me, even 6,25% is a lot, but I suppose many breeders wouldn't even call that inbreeding. Don't get me wrong, I own dogs that have higher percentages than that, but in my own breeding I choose not to take this types of chances. This is a matter of opinion of course but for me the risks outweigh the potential gains.
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  Jo on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:41 am

This was a topic of discussion on another forum recently and this post, I am copying out below has much to think about.

For a long time now people who have felt the need to tell purebred breeders what a terrible thing they do have been quoting studies and articles and much is said about hybrid vigour, inbreeding depressions, lack of thriftiness etc just as these that Karlos has presented and I've tried my hardest to look at it objectively . Though I have to admit that because of my experience in 30 plus years of breeding various stud animals especially dogs, I never really got anywhere near believing that in-breeding and line breeding was such a terrible thing, especially if it was done with knowledge.

Hybrid vigour really is one of those subjects where it's a case of you show us yours and Ill show you mine and on the surface it was feeling kind of like the cards were beginning to stack against us – until you realize that if you stick to the real subject – dogs or mammals – Not plants .. Not very scholarly but lets try for debate and discussion and let's try to stick to mammals.

O.K. so if in - breeding is such a terrible thing how do we understand how some of the cultures which have had the most impact on mankind came about. Many developed in naturally or artificially confined areas For example Crete and Japan, Peninsulas like India, Greece, and Italy, naturally enclosed areas like Peru, Mesopotamia, and Egypt, and more or less artificially enclosed areas like China and Palestine . History tells us that these people were secluded they had no choice but to inbreed and close line breed;

Humans who gained certain unique qualities usually had an instinct to separate themselves and even in primitive societies it's been well documented.

The Egyptians, Greeks, Jews all not only in bred but were also incestuous.

Take a different perspective on how you look at nature and you will see Animals striving everywhere to produce homozygosity. They don't have any instinctive safeguard against incestuous mating. Reproduction in rats, mice, rabbits and other rodents, takes place without any regard for relationship, and these animals are notorious for their fertility and vigour. Among antelopes incestuous matings are the rule. The African reedbuck, for instance, has two young at a birth, male and female, which mate together when mature. Only when one happens to die by accident does out- or cross-breeding occur and this is true of the smaller antelopes too, it’s the same with red deer. Brother and sister tigers mate as the norm and among African buffaloes, breeding occurs mainly among the immediate offspring of the same cow. The cattle from La Plata in the Falkland Islands, not only quickly multiplied from just a few , but they also broke up into smaller herds according to colour, and the close inbreeding became more intensive because of the cattle's own instincts.

Many animals do chase of the younger males and don't let any new comers in so the, males mate with their own daughters.

In nature among some monkeys constant matings between the head of the horde and his daughters, sisters and other close relations, happen. Among most animals, including elephants , the leading male mates with his daughters, grand-daughters, and great-grand-daughters, as long as he is able to keep other males away. Even when he isn't strong any more that doesn't stop the incest because usually it will be one of his sons which take his place.

Have a look at the rabbits and foxes of Australia and these are all the offspring of just a few individuals

In New Zealand the red deer began as 3 and were introduced in the 1800's from England and last count about ten years ago the herd numbered over 5,000. They show no signs of disease and they are superior in vigour and health to the original parent stock.

.A fellow called Kronacher, starting with one male and three females (a mother and two daughters) of ordinary goats, and in bred for eight generations, without any loss of size, physical development, milking capacity, fertility or vitality. In fact their fertility tended to increase. And he declared that in this case he practised no selection whatever.

In 1916 Professor Castle stated that he had successfully bred Drosophila, brother and sister, for 59 generations, without obtaining any diminution in either vigour or fertility. Moenkhaus crossed the same fly, brother and sister, for 75 generations, without harmful consequences. Hyde and Schultze achieved the same result with mice. Castle tried rats, and Popenoe guinea-pigs, and both concluded that no deleterious effects could be ascribed to the in bred system of mating. King experimented with white rats, mating brother and sister regularly for 22 generations, and among these inbred rats some were obtained which proved actually superior to the stock rats from which they had sprung. The males were 15 per cent. heavier, and the females 3 per cent., while the fertility was nearly 8 per cent. Higher.

In old Egypt, national law didn't allow mixing with foreigners, incest was common both among the people and within the ruler groups. Cleopatra, famous for her wit, beauty and intelligence, was the daughter of a brother and sister, great-grand-daughter of another brother and sister, and a great-great-grand-daughter of Berenice who was both cousin and sister to her husband. In Britain, as late as fifth century, Vortigern married his own daughter. Nor could the practice have been condemned, since the son of this sinful union was none other than St. Faustus. The ancient Irish married without distinction their mothers and sisters, and it was customary for the ancient Germans to marry their sisters. There is overwhelming evidence that the Peruvians were strictly in bred . The Incas, refused to mix their blood and married their sisters; More modern studies in human population genetics are The Pitcairn islanders, the Kisar Hybrids, the Bastards of Rehoboth, and the people of the island of Batz, all of whom are examples of human breeding with close inbreeding without harmful results. Even in tribes and races where incest is illegal, often the rulers or chiefs deliberately breach laws to keep their blood pure. For instance in several countries, marriage with half-sisters is forbidden, but the King always marries his half-sister. may marry his sister and his daughter. Eg.Cambodia, the chiefs of the Marianne and Ladrone Islands, in Hawaii, Nukuhiva, Tahiti and Madagascar, and it was also true of the Northern American Indians of New England. Nor are the people who do inbreed degenerate or diseased, and travellers comment on their great vigour and beauty.
With the Fijians — those stocks which have adhered to the ancestral custom requiring first-cousin marriages, are very much the superiors from every physical point of view of those who no longer practise, or else forbid, first-cousin marriages, and the latter are even said to be dying out, while the former have a higher birth rate and greater vitality.
The Bataks of Sumatra, who also habitually marry their first-cousins, are some of the healthiest people in the Indian Archipelago. The chiefs in Polynesia and New Zealand have all been noticed for their superior height, looks and vigour. And throughout Polynesia the closest inbreeding in mating is among the chiefs.
Therefore, humans are just as capable as some of the animals of thriving on close inbred matings, if the strains are pure; and in fact when a human stock has become quite pure close inbreeding is actually the only means of maintaining it.

I also remember living in a small community in northern NSW where some research on incest was being done in an isolated community near to us where every one of the residents were related to each other but they were definitely a prime example of what stock NOT to use as your foundation stock. I guess the movie deliverance showed that too.

So - There is a difference in how a good purebred modern dog breeder and most other humans in charge of breeding practices in other animals proceed. Profiling a pedigree which can identify recessives, mutations, diseases etc before a mate is chosen can have a huge impact. Then of course we have all the modern technologies and resources too such as DNA X rays, scans and specialist testing we can use. We're not considering animals which are inbred from a natural occurrence due to isolation etc which is usual in studies with population genetics but we are manipulating which mates to use. Without manipulating the matings things such as environmental factors [ such as loss of habitat] deficiencies in soils which lead to nutritional deficiencies etc have to also be considered as to how they may affect the study results. Usually when a scientist goes after an answer only one variable is looked at when in fact their study results may have been impacted by many others

Next - not only are we talking about breeding animals of the same species but many of the genetic issues modern purebred breeders have to contend with are not recessive issues. Polygenic genes cause us more grief than most others and the contributing factors are in all dogs .So outcrossing doesn't eliminate the potentials for seeing genes which are affected by things other than recessives BECAUSE we are still breeding the same species. If the unrelated strains share common genes for genetic disorders, no amount of hybrid vigour will over ride the risk of the disorder showing up.

Hybrid Vigour only applies to the animals that are the direct offspring of the crossing of the unrelated strains. In other words if you continue to breed animals of different strains there generally will not be any additional increase in hybrid vigour. Out-crossing can also cause problems if widely divergent physical types are mixed due to differences in growth rates and bone and muscle sizes. For example, in the lower jaw alone two parts can be inherited independently: the angle of the jaw from one parent and the chin from the other. There are at least four different parts of the nose that can be inherited independently, and cross-breeding, or out-breeding, frequently leads to defects in the endocrine balance of the body. The size of the jaw and of the teeth can be independently inherited. So you may get big teeth and a small jaw to keep them in, with other parts of the body, when the parents are unlike, or display big differences in build, size, there can be all kinds of problems in the organs — a heart too small or too large, a liver out of all proportion to the intestine, and so on. Studies in the North and South of America, have shown that in this population there are tall men with internal organs too small, or circulatory system inadequate, and short men with similar and this is also very possible with our dogs.

Short answer is that there is nothing "wrong" with breeding any two animals of any degree of relatedness, as long as the breeder realizes the potential risks and benefits of the mating. Any level of inbreeding does carry some risk (the risk that one or more formerly hidden recessive traits will be expressed in the homozygous offspring), but there is also the potential for benefits .

Each breeder has to weigh the potential costs and benefits and assess which strategy best fits his or her long term goals and interests and they shouldn't be frightened off making those decisions by propaganda spread by those trying to discredit what a purebred breeder does in order to promote crossbreeds.

There are also new developments in the science field which may show that not enough emphasis has been put on the nutrition and environment of consecutive generations in studies to date on inbreeding and population genetics – what grandma ate is now being found to have an impact on the health and longevity of the granddaughters .This may prove to impact on what has been blamed and named as an inbreeding depression. It is this field as well as Nutrigenomics which the MDBA is setting up its new research centre to study.

I’ve heard that in breeding was said to cause in sanity too but the reality is that random cross breeding may cause more problems by combining in one dog different emotional reflexes which may be in conflict with each other. Does a beagle still want to scent if it doesn’t have the nose to scent etc?

Julie
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  RaggaGisla on Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:38 pm

After reading over my post I see that, I could bee misunderarstood.
Here in Iceland it is against the ethical rules to mate father to daughter, moter to son and sister to brother.
But still I think you get the litter registerd and a pedigree with it. And there for breed them on..

I´m personaly not a fan of inbreeding.
If a breeder really knows his lines and has been breeding for MANY years and is the breeder of 3-4 genorasions and really know how the sisters and brothers of his breeding stock.. then I think it should be allright. And OFCoures keep a close eye on the offspring. And not sell them of to other breeder for ongoing breeding.. unless knowing that breeder very well ofcourse.

I was looking at a pedigree of one dog, the other day, that I was somewhat intrested in.
When I saw that his mother and father was from Inbreeding.. ,sister and brother, and that there breeder was not the same as the granmother and grandfater. Only the grandmother and grandgrandmother on mother side had the same breeder and grandmother, grandgrandmother and grandgrandgrandmother (3 generations) on father side had the same breeder.

Can the breeder of this dog, know the grandparents of this dog well enough to do this mating? Isn´t a big risky to do this, this way?
And wouldn´t it bee more risky for my and my breeding to get a dog whit this kind of pedigree and breed him with my female not at all related to him? Than to start my breeding with a dog that is not from inbreeding?
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:33 pm

I have been breeding dogs for nearly forty years, and, yes, I have done some inbreeding on occasion if there was some trait that I wanted to "set" in the dogs. When inbreeding (any breeding actually), one needs to know the dogs and what is behind them very well. Sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't.

My rule of thumb is to always double up on the good things and NEVER double up on the bad ones. If anyone is "kennel-blind", he should NOT be doing any breeding, as breeding requires that one be perfectly honest with himself as to the good AND bad qualities of his dogs.

Line-breeding is my favorite way to breed, and, in fact, I dislike out-crossing immensely as I think that just gives one a potpourri of a few millions genes that will be expressed in a haphazard fashion and usually give one nothing more than a very ordinary litter with nothing of worth. If there should be a good dog through some immense good fortune, chances are high that he will not be able to reproduce himself... but just throw ordinary offspring.

A couple years ago I had a black male come to me for showing, and he had been imported from Germany. I bred one of my bitches to him, thinking that it was my first out-cross ever, yet when I looked deeper into his pedigree, I discovered that he went back to the very roots of my original breeding program. Needless to say, I was quite delighted!

When I do breed out of my own line, I only do it if there is something that my dogs need (i.e. head improvement). I don't necessarily look for a specific stud dog, but look for a *KENNEL* that consistently produces the trait(s) I am looking for. THEN I look for that stud dog in that kennel. Go over that dog closely, as I guarantee that you will also be bringing in that kennel's faults as well as the trait you are looking for.

Think about certain kennels whose dogs you know well. What do those dogs consistently have? Good coats? Good toplines? Good movement? Good heads? If one has been breeding long enough (and knows what he is doing), you will start to see a pattern in his dogs. Here I think my dogs excel in nice, long necks, good toplines, great side movement with lots of reach and drive, and some very nice rears. I struggle with my heads a lot.

Once I bred out for more substance, better toplines, and great rears. Later I bred out for head improvement going in a different direction. In both instances, there was a common thread in the pedigrees. I found myself working basically with three different lines (mine and the other two). One day I found a puppy who combined the pedigrees of the other two dogs I had bred to, and to this day, I call that dog the GLUE in my breeding program, as he brought everything together for me in one neat package.

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Karen Brittan, Minnesota, USA
Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  snasapjasa on Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:25 am

Wow, its so great to read about your expiriance as a breeder. I just love your web page, and the descriptions of the schnauzers you own and thous who have passed away. The stoy of Gofer, reminded me of a dog i knew:)
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Inbreeding

Post  grandmaks on Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:30 am

I think it is terrible to do inbreeding and find it disturbing.

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Thank you Mr Britmor

Post  taita's Ushabti on Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:33 pm

MsBritmor wrote:I have been breeding dogs for nearly forty years, and, yes, I have done some inbreeding on occasion if there was some trait that I wanted to "set" in the dogs. When inbreeding (any breeding actually), one needs to know the dogs and what is behind them very well. Sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't.

My rule of thumb is to always double up on the good things and NEVER double up on the bad ones. If anyone is "kennel-blind", he should NOT be doing any breeding, as breeding requires that one be perfectly honest with himself as to the good AND bad qualities of his dogs.

Line-breeding is my favorite way to breed, and, in fact, I dislike out-crossing immensely as I think that just gives one a potpourri of a few millions genes that will be expressed in a haphazard fashion and usually give one nothing more than a very ordinary litter with nothing of worth. If there should be a good dog through some immense good fortune, chances are high that he will not be able to reproduce himself... but just throw ordinary offspring.

A couple years ago I had a black male come to me for showing, and he had been imported from Germany. I bred one of my bitches to him, thinking that it was my first out-cross ever, yet when I looked deeper into his pedigree, I discovered that he went back to the very roots of my original breeding program. Needless to say, I was quite delighted!

When I do breed out of my own line, I only do it if there is something that my dogs need (i.e. head improvement). I don't necessarily look for a specific stud dog, but look for a *KENNEL* that consistently produces the trait(s) I am looking for. THEN I look for that stud dog in that kennel. Go over that dog closely, as I guarantee that you will also be bringing in that kennel's faults as well as the trait you are looking for.

Think about certain kennels whose dogs you know well. What do those dogs consistently have? Good coats? Good toplines? Good movement? Good heads? If one has been breeding long enough (and knows what he is doing), you will start to see a pattern in his dogs. Here I think my dogs excel in nice, long necks, good toplines, great side movement with lots of reach and drive, and some very nice rears. I struggle with my heads a lot.

Once I bred out for more substance, better toplines, and great rears. Later I bred out for head improvement going in a different direction. In both instances, there was a common thread in the pedigrees. I found myself working basically with three different lines (mine and the other two). One day I found a puppy who combined the pedigrees of the other two dogs I had bred to, and to this day, I call that dog the GLUE in my breeding program, as he brought everything together for me in one neat package.

For me it was a plesure to read your text and I read it a several times. And I still love him.
My Husband and I we're living in Germany, and my husband Breed Black & Silver already for more than 20 years first together with his mother under the Kennel von den Brunnengärten. He was the first german who import a mini from the USA His name was Billy the Kid from Marcia Feld. And now together with me since 2003 ( my kennel excist longer but I was comming from the giant schnauzer and was living in Belgium) And
from 2004 we start look for white ( my dream ) we breed our minis and we like also to use inbreeding and now afther some years, you start to know more or less what you receive:) Of corse some things we want to change a little bit and than like you say the best is observe other breeders a long time and than try. And if it don't work .... than we have to try something other. But more or less we're happy with our dogs.
And try to keep our eyes open. Thanky ou for your time.

Christel Stamm
www.taitasushabti.com
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  Frostmourne on Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:55 pm

I think without a sapient inbreeding, no one breed would exist.
Many of the most famous stud dogs are out of inbreeding.
But I think a serious breeder must know very well Pedigrees he is going to use and to have clear in his mind the genetics and the type that he wants to get.

All the best,
Merylisa.
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  des matins de cristal on Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:21 pm

Myltan wrote:I guess there are quite some oppinions about this topic. There is a thin line between the good use of line breeding and the bad effects of inbreeding. Ofcourse if you mate littermates alike in both genetics and type you will up the likelyhood of getting the type you started out with, and want. At the same time you will increese the risk of hereditary health issues. It is close to imposible to know everything hidden in the genes, healthwise.

I think it is a smart thing to be a bit careful specially at the beginning of your breeding adventure. When you get to know more about "your" lines and seen many generations from the same lines you might be a bit more bold.

It will be fun to hear more about this from the rest of the world.

Maria

I am ok with you !!! Very Happy Very Happy
In france no rules and i know a salt and peper standard with 50 % of consanguinity ... Sad
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Re: Inbreeding

Post  jamessmith4152 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:23 am

Hello,

Inbreeding is the reproduction from the mating of two genetically related parents. Inbreeding results in increased homozygosity, which can increase the chances of offspring being affected by recessive or deleterious traits. This generally leads to a decreased fitness of a population, which is called inbreeding depression. Deleterious alleles causing inbreeding depression can subsequently be removed through culling, which is also known as genetic purging.

Thanks,

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