Undocked tail in USA

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Undocked tail in USA

Post  Esther on Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:12 pm

“A dog shown in conformation with a natural tail should be penalized because an undocked tail is a deviation from the Standard.”

http://schnauzerweb.com/undocked.html

scratch

Esther


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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Elis on Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:45 pm

Are they really saying that dogs with natural/undocked tails are not qualified for shows?

Wow.. that's just plain stupid.
This goes only for AKC right?
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Jo on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:27 pm

In Canada they have banned docking in some areas, so it might be the very start of changing things like this over there. Don't forget they still crop ears over there and natural eared dogs are much more difficult to title.
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Esther on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:52 pm

Jo wrote:In Canada they have banned docking in some areas, so it might be the very start of changing things like this over there. Don't forget they still crop ears over there and natural eared dogs are much more difficult to title.

Yes I understand that, but to say that natural ears are not in standard and it shut be penalized in shows I think strange.

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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Elis on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:58 am

Esther wrote:
Jo wrote:In Canada they have banned docking in some areas, so it might be the very start of changing things like this over there. Don't forget they still crop ears over there and natural eared dogs are much more difficult to title.

Yes I understand that, but to say that natural ears are not in standard and it shut be penalized in shows I think strange.

It is strange indeed Suspect
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Alessandra on Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:36 pm

Since many years, I say that FCI should do two different standards and breeds : the European Schnauzer who follows the original standard from Germany and the American Schnauzer who follows the American strange rules....
FCI done the same with Akita, why not for the Schnauzers????
Maybe FCI is worry to loose many money from the South American Kennels Club? ( Argentina, Venezuela, Brasil etc...). scratch
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Jo on Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:00 pm

I could certainly see the argument for the black giants.
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Alessandra on Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:41 pm

I'm agree also for the minies.....we don't must forget that they are in the terrier group!
It's very difficult for us show our minies there....there is not a balanced contest, they are really different.
I don't talk over if they are better than ours...just we don't breed the same dogs.
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Jo on Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:00 am

I would like to see the minis groomed in the same way, it would be interesting to see just how different the structure is underneath the hairstyle and grooming products.
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Oberfidz on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:19 am

Yeahh, thats sounds very strange Suspect And whats the point???? Actually I'm the one who likes their dogs format, they are very compact, with good temperament what unfortunately don't have dogs from Europe Rolling Eyes I think that we have to take this from their dogs, but they have to take our grooming ang type of coat! Today in Europe breeders trying to find the better way how to put together harsh coat on body with many hair in legs, as it is in americam dogs. But what do americans? Nothing! They think that that miniature what they have breed is better than this type which we have! And thats not right! I don't think that another breed standart for our and their dogs would be good, because we have very many minies which are between both variations Rolling Eyes
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Jardin on Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:13 am

Speaking as someone from the US, I would love to see more uncropped ears in the show ring. Unfortunately, since we have not historically bred for good ear sets, it can be difficult to locate a mini with good natural ears over here Sad As for tails, I confess it is strange to see one with a tail since I have always seen them docked, but I'm not opposed to showing with tails as well.

Susan Retzer
Illinois, USA
Jardin Miniature Schnauzers

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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  lutomska on Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:23 pm

Alessandra wrote:Since many years, I say that FCI should do two different standards and breeds : the European Schnauzer who follows the original standard from Germany and the American Schnauzer who follows the American strange rules....
FCI done the same with Akita, why not for the Schnauzers????
Maybe FCI is worry to loose many money from the South American Kennels Club? ( Argentina, Venezuela, Brasil etc...). scratch

I think it could be a very good idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Smile
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  tonda on Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:07 pm

YES It´s good idea, but I´ve one question. Who is in the american type??? I think that we have only 2 types. German ( the old one ) and the American ( European ) type. With the time I think that European and American types are the same ones. Cool
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Oberfidz on Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:33 am

tonda wrote:YES It´s good idea, but I´ve one question. Who is in the american type??? I think that we have only 2 types. German ( the old one ) and the American ( European ) type. With the time I think that European and American types are the same ones. Cool

I agree with you! And I have the same question Smile
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  AnnaD on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:58 pm

I can see big diffrence in American lines versus Europen lines. The coat differ the body structure and the compact squere is different, totally diffrent but it is more obvious for the black ones then the p/s ones.

I think is mainly because in U.S.A they usally change the standard for the breeds (not only Schnauzer all sizes, just all breeds ) and make their one version. But if you look closely to American working Riesenschnauzer assiastion you can see their effort for changing things to the better.

The old type should be the right type since it is the German standards that sets the standards for the breed. But I am a great fan for the German lines even though that many breeders think it old fashioned, but still the same the are the right ones set by the pioneers for the breed and have not changed in the homecountry for the breed.
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:55 pm

Somehow I missed this thread.

Under the American breed standard, cropped and uncropped ears are EQUAL, however, it is harder to win with an uncropped ear. I suspect a lot of this is due to the fact that few here know what an uncropped ear should look like, and many (including several breeders) think they should look like terrier ears (which, of course, is incorrect). Being uncertain about them makes it easier to pick a dog with cropped ears, I guess. Since I no longer crop ears, I find this extremely irritating.

Here is the scoop on the tails (which I personally do not agree with either). Our breed standard reads in regard to tails: "Set high and carried erect. It is docked only long enough to be clearly visible over the backline of the body when the dog is in proper length of coat." Because of this, AMSC says that if a dog is shown with tail intact that it is to be considered a fault since they are to be shown docked.

As to the previous coat comments, do not ever make assumptions. American dogs do not all have soft coats (we do leave on more furnishings, generally); German dogs do not all have hard coats!

My last litter was sired by a German import; I had to work like crazy twice a week to get some texture in his wavy coat before I showed him! The hardest coat I've ever had my hands on belonged to my Britmor Yours Truly, who spent three weeks in Italy several years ago breeding three Scedir bitches. While not all of my dogs have Finn's wonderful coat, I do get a few here now and then. Structure is more important to me than coat.

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Karen Brittan, Minnesota, USA
Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  AnnaD on Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:25 pm

Sure it can be made as sumption over the whole breed but that was not intention at all. But I think it is not only a U.S.A thing at all. I had a black giant bitch that had a very difficult coat and it was a lot of grooming to do and was a lot of stripping. The undercoat was ruling in all matters. If I was going to show her it was an 2 hour process 3 times a week to keep the coat in good condition. And she was not with U.S.A pedigree at all.

And it is ignorance to say it is only in U.S.A lines but it is more obvious (my opnion) in those lines. Perhaps it is also in the grooming my sister in law did learn in U.S.A grooming and all the schnauzer that came to the salon where shaved not stripped.

Wavy coats comes every where but not all breeders want to show that on their homepage do they ? At least I am finding more and more breeders trying to hide the true look af the dog and health results then beining honest and that goes for the whole world.

The fact is it is in lines don´t you agree? So it takes a lot of study to try to avoid those types of coat then just look at pictures of few dogs rather then investigate ancestors and the lines behind dog on breeders homepage.

And if more breeders where as honest as you and informative about their dogs it would be easier for many other breeders or buyers that want to show a dog without breeding from them.
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Esther on Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:29 pm

I have to agree with Karen.

I can’t understand this dislike some people have on USA lines in miniature schnauzer, I absolutely love how they groom them and thou I like the mini with natural ears and tails, I can agree with some breeders that docked tail and pointy ears are showier on some dogs.
My newest litter in black and silver is from Scedir female and male with Scedir lines and like most Scedir lines it comes from Britmore and other USA lines. Both of these dogs have great coats and these puppies are more that I hoped for in structure and quality.

In whites I know many European breeders are looking at Mervar´s USA lines as something to desire and why is that if the quality of the dogs are somehow better in Europe?

I’m looking forward to next show here in Iceland, It’s in 2 weeks and in the last CACIB show here I had BOB in all colors other than black/silver in miniature and now I’m trying something new and is going to show all of my dogs in USA grooming, maybe the judge docent like it and if so, it’s ok. I know the quality of my own dogs, and am willing to try this at least ones because I really like the USA grooming so much more.

Esther


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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:03 pm

Send me photos, Esther, and I will be happy to critique them for you. I have done this for a few exhibitors around the world who want to "Americanize" their grooming.

The important thing is to know your breed standard and to know your dog's good and bad points.... and then groom to that breed standard.

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Karen Brittan, Minnesota, USA
Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  RaggaGisla on Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:57 am

AnnaD wrote:I had a black giant bitch that had a very difficult coat and it was a lot of grooming to do and was a lot of stripping. The undercoat was ruling in all matters. If I was going to show her it was an 2 hour process 3 times a week to keep the coat in good condition. And she was not with U.S.A pedigree at all.
The same litter mates or siblings don't all have the same coat type.

Like my Giant Female (yours Giant sister) has a very good coat. Perhaps her biggest problem is that she lacks undercoat. I strip her 3-5x a year, it takes 2 hours.. tops... And I weekly groom her for 5 minutes ones a week.
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  AnnaD on Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:10 am

RaggaGisla wrote:
AnnaD wrote:I had a black giant bitch that had a very difficult coat and it was a lot of grooming to do and was a lot of stripping. The undercoat was ruling in all matters. If I was going to show her it was an 2 hour process 3 times a week to keep the coat in good condition. And she was not with U.S.A pedigree at all.
The same litter mates or siblings don't all have the same coat type.

Like my Giant Female (yours Giant sister) has a very good coat. Perhaps her biggest problem is that she lacks undercoat. I strip her 3-5x a year, it takes 2 hours.. tops... And I weekly groom her for 5 minutes ones a week.

I was talking about my bitch not yours at all Very Happy
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Grovelea on Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:52 am

May i venture ........ If the coat texture is mentioned in the Breed Standard should we not take this into account when breeding?
How many people breed for the harsh leg hair that is called for in the Breed Standard.
These fabulously turned out dogs that are groomed to perfection for the show ring look amazing, but in all honesty it is done for the judges.
Dare I say ...... a 'hair do' doesn't make a schnauzer?
No
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  RaggaGisla on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:51 am

AnnaD wrote:
RaggaGisla wrote:
AnnaD wrote:I had a black giant bitch that had a very difficult coat and it was a lot of grooming to do and was a lot of stripping. The undercoat was ruling in all matters. If I was going to show her it was an 2 hour process 3 times a week to keep the coat in good condition. And she was not with U.S.A pedigree at all.
The same litter mates or siblings don't all have the same coat type.

Like my Giant Female (yours Giant sister) has a very good coat. Perhaps her biggest problem is that she lacks undercoat. I strip her 3-5x a year, it takes 2 hours.. tops... And I weekly groom her for 5 minutes ones a week.

I was talking about my bitch not yours at all Very Happy

What I was trying to say is that not all "American" lines have soft coat or bad coat and not all "German" lines have good coat. It CAN vary from dog to dog. Like you said.. your dogs comes from Germans lines and so does mine.. yet they have a different coat.
It is a BIG statement to exclude all American dogs just because you think they only have soft or wavy coats. You can find that in germans lines too..
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  AnnaD on Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:03 pm

Grovelea wrote:May i venture ........ If the coat texture is mentioned in the Breed Standard should we not take this into account when breeding?
How many people breed for the harsh leg hair that is called for in the Breed Standard.
These fabulously turned out dogs that are groomed to perfection for the show ring look amazing, but in all honesty it is done for the judges.
Dare I say ...... a 'hair do' doesn't make a schnauzer?
No

Amen to that one Smile
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

Post  Jo on Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:37 pm

Grovelea wrote:May i venture ........ If the coat texture is mentioned in the Breed Standard should we not take this into account when breeding?
How many people breed for the harsh leg hair that is called for in the Breed Standard.
These fabulously turned out dogs that are groomed to perfection for the show ring look amazing, but in all honesty it is done for the judges.
Dare I say ...... a 'hair do' doesn't make a schnauzer?
No

Totally agree! A hair do can be used to create the wanted outline without having to breed for the correct structure instead! Cool
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Re: Undocked tail in USA

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