Liver/Tan dogs

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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:39 pm

Kanis Minor wrote:Schnauzers in Russia (any colour) is absolutely non commercial breed. And its very strange for me why at once there are questions about commercial benefit, instead of on purposeful work of breeders?

"Non-commercial"? Are you saying that no one wants to buy schnauzers as pets in Russia? What do you do with the ones that don't make it to the show ring and are only pet-quality?

Here Miniature Schnauzers are something like #11 in breed popularity according to AKC (the larger versions are much further down the list). Thousands of MS puppies are registered every month, and of those, only a few hundred (maybe) are produced by reputable breeders.... and most of us (real breeders) place our pet puppies on spay/neuter contracts so that they will not be able reproduce. Those "casual" breeders, the ones breeding the beloved family pet, rarely do that. Some just do one breeding and then spay the bitch, while others, now all over the internet, start getting into "breeding" (reproducing) in a big way, and their prices start going up.

I once said to someone that if I had 20 bitches and bred them every season that I could not keep up with the demand for puppies. I still remember the day my phone rang SEVEN times... from people looking for new puppies. It gets really bad here, particularly in the spring when the weather starts warming up. My list of recommended breeders hangs right here above my computer so that I can send people on their way to hopefully find a good puppy.

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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:17 pm

jellun said:
"I can believe that you make cross-breeds in US. Even in big kennels owners not always can prove pedigrees of their dogs.
But color politics and breeding control in Germany (where whites are recognized by PSK) is quite high. Kennels v. Bommerholz & v. Rhedaer Tor & v. Grunewald would never use Westies in their breeding! 1920-1940 Westies were not so popular as now, but white (named *yellow* in PSK studbooks) dogs were appearing even that time."


Pedigrees here can now be verified through DNA-testing, and it is an AKC requirement that frequently-used stud dogs be DNA-tested.

I did not question the whites in Germany. I said you cannot always trust the whites HERE. (Be careful where you shop....)

I had the chapters on whites and particolors translated from two German schnauzer books so I am somewhat familiar with them there and understand how the whites became accepted (and this includes the white Standard Schnauzer of unknown registry that Irmgard Sauer incorporated into her pedigree).

Oh, going back to the commercialism in breeding, I know of a well-known schnauzer breeder in California who produces something like 30 litters a MONTH. Some people in the AMSC are quite unhappy with her since she is also a licensed judge and has started breeding whites (which is a breed disqualification for us). I don't think she will be getting any choice judging assignments anytime soon.

Hmmm.... breeding against one's country's breed standard could be an entire thread of its own (particularly if it involves a JUDGE)!

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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Esther on Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:31 pm

MsBritmor wrote: Oh, going back to the commercialism in breeding, I know of a well-known schnauzer breeder in California who produces something like 30 litters a MONTH.

Vohh.. 30 in one year is A LOT, 1 litter a day is crasy silent
I have never heard about breeders like that, not even our biggest puppymill here in Iceland has 1/4 of this number each month.

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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Kanis Minor on Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:50 am

MsBritmor

oohhh Stop stop stop Neutral

I will try to explain what i want to say in my clumsy English:) IMHO!!!. Under the term non-commercial, I meant that the puppy is NOT expencive in russia compare with some other breed. The good puppy with pedegree costs about 400-500 dollars (in regions more cheaply). In Russia other breed, for example Yorkshire terrier more suffers. I think that liver/Tan colour NOT = super popularity and the big money. I do not know, how in America, but that I see in Russia rather liver/Tan colour-it purposeful work of excellent Breeders. I love black zwergshnauzwers, however, I do not do conclusions that liver/Tan colour plant exclusively for the sake of money. I hope, I could be expressed clearly. Rolling Eyes
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  jellun on Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:45 pm

I agree with Kanis Minor.

I had black litters: people are calling, they know such color, they are ready to pay.
And this is also season thing (more hard to sell in Spring or Summer): miniature schnauzer is not commercial breed anymore and I am lucky to find nice people in time. Pugs, Yorkies, Westies are the top breeds to sell in Germany at the moment.

I had 1 litter of whites (out of International Champion mother and World Winner father): 3 puppies out of 6 are still at my home (will be 3 years old soon): nobody is interested - germans dont know it -they see such color first time in their life!
Slowly it gets popular in some countries and among other color breeders: so export is best possible way to sell whites. In Germany I am happy to sell puppy in nice hands for 500eur. If I put price up 800eur -they probably will sit till 6 months and more...Doesnt matter pet or show quality...

Only couple of top breeders can afford high prices and many litters.
Puppymills produce pugs...not schnauzers anymore.

I plan next white pups in Autumn. Bitch will be 4 years old, first litter, many titles... I am already now preparing that half litter will stay... Sad

And liver/tan dogs - absolutely hard to sell....
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  jellun on Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:51 pm

MsBritmor wrote: (and this includes the white Standard Schnauzer of unknown registry that Irmgard Sauer incorporated into her pedigree).

Miniature schnauzer were coming out of Standarts...of uknown registery mostly... Cool
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liver and tan

Post  Iz Doma Defransh on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:23 am

Hello to everybody! I thank you all for the interest. Indeed, the liver&tan color is recognized in Russia and can get CAC on Russian national shows. We are judged by experts of FCI-RKF. Many times we were judged by foreign experts, and they did it with great interest. The color is actually new, it was recognized only 10 years ago, it came from b/s (was "splitted" genetically) imported from Czechoslovakia. In 90-s there were also examples of liver&tans there. We know nothing about the use of other breeds to get this color and we never did it ourselves. I fully agree with those who believe that it will take much time and efforts for this color to be recognized, but this is why the work is so interesting and challenging!
The quality of the dogs of this color is very different. But there are examples who can compete with other colors. In the last seven years they often became the winners on special shows among all colors.
I saw the objection on this Forum that we have problems with the pigment. Actually, we don't! The liver&tan dogs have brown noses and dark-brown claws. In their breeding I follow the same goals as the breeders of other colors - to get good anatomy, bright color, hard coat.
This is not commercial color, the price is similar to that for other colors. However, when people see those liver&tan dogs in reality, they like such a warm, beautiful, "sweat" color, and the more and more people are interested in them.




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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Jo on Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:07 pm

Hi

Nice to see you on this forum. Do you have a website to show off the work and progress you have made in this colour so far? The dogs in your photos above look much improved on the earlier examples I have seen on the zwergschnauzer site.

Can I ask, are they affected by the fading, that happens in some b/s or blacks? Or do they have a natural range of shades of brown, like we see in other brown breeds? Also, what colour are their eyes?
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Myltan on Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:00 pm

HI

We all breed the same breed, black, b/s, s/p or white and by the same FCI standard. For all theese the standard say
nose..."always black"
lips....."black"
eyes..."dark"
nails...."black"

So what is this with a colour carrying liver nose and lips, yellow eyes, brown nails???

Iz Doma Defransh wrote
However, when people see those liver&tan dogs in reality, they like such a warm, beautiful, "sweat" color, and the more and more people are interested in them.

Yea and that is why we get things like Schnoodle, Cockapoos and other funny so called breeds too.

I totally agree with MsBritmor
" To me, when someone starts experimenting with our breed standards in regard to colors, size, or WHATEVER, it tells me that they really have no respect for what the forefathers of our breeds were trying to achieve.... and only care for the money they might get for coming up with something "different"."

As I said earlier this is my opinion and I feel strongly about this. Others are entitled to their opinion and it is a good thing we can talk about this in this Forum.

M

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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Iz Doma Defransh on Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:38 pm

Yes, I have my website but it was not updated since 2007.
http://izdomadefransh.sitecity.ru/
On that site, there are dogs who are not as good as we have now. Here you can see the photos of my earlier liver/tan dogs.



As to the problem of fading, we don’t have such problems with the hard coating itself, and the colors really fall in the range of natural brown color. It often happens that the coating on legs becomes lighter. The eyes are from yellow to brown, that is, lighter than in other colors.


Yea and that is why we get things like Schnoodle, Cockapoos and other funny so called breeds too.

Liver/tan dogs are really zwergschnauzers by their character, by peculiarities of the coating, they just have another color, which attract some people.

At the beginning, it was considered that zwergschnauzers could be only black and p/s. After that b/s and white appeared which also were considered by conservatives as ugly. But now b/s is one of the most popular colors, and the same about white which also becomes more and more popular. As to respect to the forefathers, we do respect them all, but it does not mean that nobody can try to do something new, not instead of but in addition to. I don’t care for the money (the price for a good puppy is $350), this is not a business to me, I just want to get good dogs with this new color comparable in quality with other colors, like those who did the same with, e.g., b/s.
I live 5000 km from Moscow ( in Irkutsk, Baikal) and it is a funny idea to earn the money here on this business.
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Jo on Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:29 pm

Thank you for the link. The I litter look quite promising, how did they turn out? I wish you luck in continuing to improve the colour.

I agree, this colour is in addition to the other colours, it doesn't take anything away from the breed, just gives people another choice, this is nothing like breeding schnauzers with other breeds to create 'designer dogs'.
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Iz Doma Defransh on Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:12 pm

In my first message there were the photos of the I litter. In 2008 I had 3 litters with the puppies also very promising. If you are interested in, I have their photos of 2 months and grown up puppies but this is "home photo".

Thank you for your kind wishes, it is really a very interesting and challenging task to reach the same level of quality as in other colors, and I will do my best.
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Jo on Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:58 pm

Hi, yes I am interested in seeing this colour develop, it's good that people are putting in the hard work for this to happen.
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Iz Doma Defransh on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:04 am

Litter R (January 2008) The page is in Russia but you can look through the pictures of the litter.
http://izdomadefransh.sitecity.ru/ltext_0710230311.phtml?p_ident=ltext_0710230311.p_0803070545

Litter S (January 2008)







Litter H (September 2008)





The photos of the grown up dogs are made by thier owners - nonprofessionals.
I am eagerly waiting when the dogs will become grown enough to make good photos.


Last edited by Iz Doma Defransh on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Jo on Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:37 pm

They do show a good improvement over the earlier dogs of this colour. Smile
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Iz Doma Defransh on Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:49 pm

Here, In Russia, more and more people become keen on liver&tan zvergschnauzers. Some of them are seriosly engaged in breeding this color. That’s why I hope we have good chances to improve it and to reach good level.
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well......

Post  Morningstar on Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:54 am

The founders of our breed had a vision that was Salt and Pepper ONLY, that was harsh coated, (no fluffy furnishings), working type breed and back then, 10in. to 12 in. height. That was wonderful for them, but not for me and obviously, not to most breeders around the world who like black, black and silver, or white, or liver, or parti. It is imperative to remember the beginings and to acknowledge the differences from the vision then, to the dog NOW, even without the our 'wrong' colors....which my friends would include blacks and b/s to the founders.

We have to remember that every breed known, was MADE of other breeds, someone's vision of a 'perfect' dog to fill a working need, or to fill a lap. If someone wishes to 'make' a new breed, more power to them. IF it is done correctly, with records of every step and that does include 'breeding true', which means that the puppies must look and act like, their parents. That my friends is the hardest thing to accomplish in 'creating' a new breed. Then once you have a 'new' breed, the fight is just started to gain acceptance with registeries(the good ones, not the 'fly by night' ones which are rampent in the USA.) Either do it right, or stop. I thank God that people have chosen to breed whites, blacks, b/s and livers and yes, partis. These colors are all possible, maybe not what you or I would choose to breed, but possible. I thank God that those brave few decided the 'unwanted' colors that kept cropping up in their litters deserved to live and to be enjoyed. They are the ones that have made it possible for a women in the middle of nowhere, to begin to fulfill a dream that started over 20 years ago, when she saw a white miniature schnauzer being walked in town. IMHO
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  blacknwhite on Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:27 am

Morningstar wrote:The founders of our breed had a vision that was Salt and Pepper ONLY, that was harsh coated, (no fluffy furnishings), working type breed and back then, 10in. to 12 in. height. That was wonderful for them, but not for me and obviously, not to most breeders around the world who like black, black and silver, or white, or liver, or parti. It is imperative to remember the beginings and to acknowledge the differences from the vision then, to the dog NOW, even without the our 'wrong' colors....which my friends would include blacks and b/s to the founders.

We have to remember that every breed known, was MADE of other breeds, someone's vision of a 'perfect' dog to fill a working need, or to fill a lap. If someone wishes to 'make' a new breed, more power to them. IF it is done correctly, with records of every step and that does include 'breeding true', which means that the puppies must look and act like, their parents. That my friends is the hardest thing to accomplish in 'creating' a new breed. Then once you have a 'new' breed, the fight is just started to gain acceptance with registeries(the good ones, not the 'fly by night' ones which are rampent in the USA.) Either do it right, or stop. I thank God that people have chosen to breed whites, blacks, b/s and livers and yes, partis. These colors are all possible, maybe not what you or I would choose to breed, but possible. I thank God that those brave few decided the 'unwanted' colors that kept cropping up in their litters deserved to live and to be enjoyed. They are the ones that have made it possible for a women in the middle of nowhere, to begin to fulfill a dream that started over 20 years ago, when she saw a white miniature schnauzer being walked in town. IMHO

What a wonderful post!
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Morningstar on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:23 am

Thank you for the sentiment and the courage to make it public. Wink
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:45 pm

blacknwhite wrote:
Morningstar wrote:The founders of our breed had a vision that was Salt and Pepper ONLY, that was harsh coated, (no fluffy furnishings), working type breed and back then, 10in. to 12 in. height.

What a wonderful post!

Except that the first sentence is incorrect. Our breed goes back to three "founding fathers" in the early 1900's... three sires who were very popular in their day... one SP, one black, and one black and yellow (black and tan then... now black and silver)... S. Lord v. Dornbusch (SP), Ch. S. Peter v. Westerberg (B) and Prinz v. Rheinstein (black/yellow).

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liver/tan

Post  Morningstar on Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:54 pm

It wasn't very clear was it? I meant the people who 'made' the breed. Would you mind terribly starting a new topic on history of the breed? I would enjoy it and I suspect, so would everyone else. Very Happy
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  MsBritmor on Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:57 pm

Morningstar wrote:It wasn't very clear was it? I meant the people who 'made' the breed. Would you mind terribly starting a new topic on history of the breed? I would enjoy it and I suspect, so would everyone else. Very Happy

Whom are you talking to? Me? Or someone else?

I could probably copy something from those old books of mine in a couple weeks if you were referring to me. The author has been dead for a few years now, and I doubt she would mind.

You might have to remind me, as I get busy with other things in my life and forget my "to do" list.

Currently I am getting ready to go to some shows (3 days) in Topeka, KS, about nine hours away, and today was my day to get my clothes ready (ya... and here I sit). The dog is ready except for a final topline check and bath of furnishings and scissoring. (I like to scissor three times before the dog hits the ring.) And then I come home late Sunday night and start all over again as I will be showing him again the following weekend... same time; same schedule... except only seven or so hours away. HUGE majors for us (entries in males something like 16 and 14), so I am planning on going just to have a good time with some old friends and showing off an old-style schnauzer with a body and bone<G>... just to remind folks what a SCHNAUZER is supposed to look like<GGGGG>

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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  Morningstar on Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:18 pm

AMEN!! <G> Yes Ms. Britmor I did mean you. lol, not much to ask in show season.......Maybe this winter? and good luck, I hear he is a nice boy! Now, are you going to show his brother? The one with natural ears, or is that this one? (I didn't ask, duh. So much for yaking when you forget to ask an important thing) That could be interesting indeed.


I have tried to find a copy of Anne Es. book without any luck. So if anyone has an extra laying around and you want to sell it, let me know.

Thanks!
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

Post  MsBritmor on Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:09 am

The only dogs here with cropped ears are OLD (except for Glory, whom I did not breed); I haven't had ears cropped for eleven years now.

The dog I am currently showing in conformation is Britmor Cruisen For A Bruisen, my daughter's agility dog. The male in that litter whom I preferred had his bite go level, and the smallest male just HATED being shown. I may try those two in rally, if I can find the time to train them.

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Ms Britmore

Post  Morningstar on Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:23 am

Oi, I didn't know that! I am glad, I prefer the natural ears myself. Good luck again ! happy happy
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Re: Liver/Tan dogs

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