HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

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HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Chris on Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:01 pm

Hi,
What is the allowed height in your country?
Here in England the English kennel Club breed standard for miniature schnauzers say:
Size
Ideal height: dogs: 36 cms (14 ins); bitches: 33 cms (13 ins). Too small, toyish appearing dogs are not typical and undesirable.


Here in our show rings they are quite strict about height!

It says nothing about weight, but my smallest at 13" is 7kg and my largest 8kg.

On height, what is the tallest and smallest, you would think possible to show?
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:13 pm

Chris wrote:Hi,
What is the allowed height in your country?
Here in England the English kennel Club breed standard for miniature schnauzers say:
Size
Ideal height: dogs: 36 cms (14 ins); bitches: 33 cms (13 ins). Too small, toyish appearing dogs are not typical and undesirable.


Here in our show rings they are quite strict about height!

It says nothing about weight, but my smallest at 13" is 7kg and my largest 8kg.

On height, what is the tallest and smallest, you would think possible to show?

Our Breed Standard in North America calls for 12-14", with a disqualification for anything outside of that. This would be 30.48-35.56 cm, if my conversion table is correct.

I have seen oversize dogs finish... and one in particular I know was trained to go under the measuring wicket, as I saw it myself. Unfortunately, one doesn't always have ethical breeders, ethical handlers, or intelligent judges in the conformation ring. As for myself, while I have no qualms about breeding a dog that is *slightly* oversize if it is otherwise a quality dog, I refuse to show one.

The problem is that usually the larger dogs are the ones with more substance and bone, whereas the smaller ones can be lacking there. I have a black male here who is all of 13" tall in his stocking feet, but with bone<G>, and I would really like to try showing him, but he is pretty small (AND uncropped). When I get him into coat, I just might try him to see how he takes to the ring.

The smallest miniature I ever saw finish was... hmmm... long time ago now... maybe was 12-1/4". I don't think she was 12-1/2". She was very small, very correct, and VERY showy. "Look at MEEEE; look at MEEEE!" Most judges had no choice but to put her up<G> Usually, though, it is as hard to finish a small dog here as it is to finish one with natural ears. A struggle... to say the least.

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Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Jo on Wed May 06, 2009 12:23 am

Chris wrote:Hi,
What is the allowed height in your country?
Here in England the English kennel Club breed standard for miniature schnauzers say:
Size
Ideal height: dogs: 36 cms (14 ins); bitches: 33 cms (13 ins). Too small, toyish appearing dogs are not typical and undesirable.


Here in our show rings they are quite strict about height!

It says nothing about weight, but my smallest at 13" is 7kg and my largest 8kg.

On height, what is the tallest and smallest, you would think possible to show?

I wouldn't say our rings ARE strict about height, there are plenty of very tall dogs in the rings, especially the males - sometimes my p/s can look tiny and he is not far off the ideal.

We have also seen the trend for very big giants in the ring as well. My older bitch is bang on correct height at 24.5 inches but again can look tiny when stood in the same line up as some of the show bitches.


You can sometimes get on with a larger then normal dog if that year the general show population are tall, however, I think a smaller then average dog/bitch will always struggle in UK rings. It's a shame sometimes that we don't measure the height of the dogs.


Last edited by Jo on Wed May 06, 2009 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Grovelea on Wed May 06, 2009 12:34 am

Jo wrote:[
You can sometimes get on with a larger then normal dog if that year the general show population are tall, however, I think a smaller then average dog/bitch will always struggle in UK rings. It's a shame sometimes that we don't measure the height of the dogs.

I agree with this point of view, Judges of Giants never penalise a dog that obviously over the height standard, but will allways comment and sometimes penalise a dog that is at the lower end of the standard, they will say something like " not the biggest of dogs" they aren't incorrect because our standard calls for females between 23 1/2 inches and 25 1/2 inches. and males 25 1/2 inches and 27 1/2 inches, so anything within that standard should be ok, you never here a judge say " this dog is over the height standard". Rolling Eyes scratch
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  RaggaGisla on Wed May 06, 2009 12:26 pm

I have a male miniature that is 33cm in height and I have heard people say that hi is small when hi is in the show ring and sadly we are starting to have some bit miniatures here in Iceland.
I also hear the same about my giant female. She is 65 cm and I hear people say "ohh.. is´nt she small."
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Randi's Ushabti on Wed May 06, 2009 1:26 pm

According to the FCI-standard:

SIZE AND WEIGHT
Height at withers: Dogs and bitches between 30 and 35 cm.
Weight: Dogs and bitches approximately 4 to 8 kg.

FAULTS :
• Over- or undersize up to 1 cm.

SERIOUS FAULTS :
• Over- or undersize by more than 1 cm but less than 2 cm.

DISQUALIFYING FAULTS :
• Over- or undersize by more than 2 cm.

http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/183A2007_en.doc
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Oberfidz on Wed May 06, 2009 1:46 pm

RaggaGisla wrote:I have a male miniature that is 33cm in height and I have heard people say that hi is small when hi is in the show ring and sadly we are starting to have some bit miniatures here in Iceland.
I also hear the same about my giant female. She is 65 cm and I hear people say "ohh.. is´nt she small."
Ohh, I can understand you very well. Very often I'm in the same situation with my white boy who is 33,5 cm and when he is in the show ring together with others who are almoast 37-38 cm all say taht he looks very feminine Sad
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Sandrine on Wed May 06, 2009 3:10 pm

37/38cm ??? a miniature schnauzer ? really ?
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Oberfidz on Wed May 06, 2009 4:41 pm

Yes, unfortunately Sad Esspecially if they are already champions!
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Sandrine on Wed May 06, 2009 5:46 pm

how is it possible ? to be champion and to not be in the standard ??
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Jo on Wed May 06, 2009 6:21 pm

Sandrine wrote:how is it possible ? to be champion and to not be in the standard ??

Probably lack of competition and judges who don't want to withold the award.

When a friend of mine was showing a smaller male, she put a measuring tape up the side of her grooming arm, so everyone who walked past the grooming table could see exactly how tall he was and that he wasn't really a tiny dog!
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  MsBritmor on Thu May 07, 2009 12:28 am

Sandrine wrote:how is it possible ? to be champion and to not be in the standard ??

Bad judging and no one complained. Here an exhibitor in the ring competing against a questionable dog can call for the wicket and have the dog measured. I have only seen that happen once, though... and it was I that did it. I was talked into doing it by the other competitors (who were not in direct competition with that dog so could not do it, and two of them later became well-known judges). The dog was HUGE and obviously oversize. While we all stood around waiting for the wicket to arrive, the handler of the oversized dog kneeled on the floor pretending to comb him, and every couple strokes she hit him over the shoulders with the tines of her comb... obviously reminding him that he needed to shorten himself up when the wicket arrived. The dog was partially hidden behind her skirt, so the judge never saw what she was doing. The dog measured in.... and the whole thing was quite disgusting.

I was sorry I got talked into doing it. I will never understand why people need to be so dishonest. As the saying goes, winning isn't everything.

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Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  MsBritmor on Thu May 07, 2009 12:50 am

Jo wrote:
When a friend of mine was showing a smaller male, she put a measuring tape up the side of her grooming arm, so everyone who walked past the grooming table could see exactly how tall he was and that he wasn't really a tiny dog!

Now that is a VERY interesting idea! LOL!

I am starting to get more serious about grooming the dogs here as I am getting more active after my surgery, and today I decided it was time to get busy with the coat on one of the young black boys. I worked his coat in the tub, and then worked it some more on the table... and then seriously looked at him and measured him (again). He is all of 13" tall (33.02 cm), *small* here for a male, but... OH MY! He is gorgeous! I truly think I like him better than his two larger brothers, and now I am seriously thinking I should try showing this little squirt. Tripper has the BODY I love, short, SHORT back, and he moves well coming, going, and from the side. Nice topline, too. Right now, his coat looks like his (German) father's lovely waves, but that might change once I get the texture coming in better (it did with his brother Cruise).

I am now thinking of entering him at our Specialty June 5 to help make a major, even if he won't be in coat yet. I have plans to enter his brother Cruise, whose coat is coming along beautifully, but who also doesn't have a lot of leg hair since I have been pulling on them every time I put him on the table*G*. Me and my experimentation.... LOL! (One of these days I will have the blacks figured out*G*)

I was thinking of entering Ace in obedience to support that part of our Specialty, but if I enter the two black boys, I *REALLY* won't be able to do that, too.

Decisions, decisions....

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Karen Brittan, Minnesota, USA
Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Randi's Ushabti on Thu May 07, 2009 9:44 am

Oberfidz wrote:Yes, unfortunately Sad Esspecially if they are already champions!
This isn't only happening in Letland
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Frostmourne on Thu May 07, 2009 9:55 pm

I don't understand !!!!

If there is a Standard, it must be respected and it can not be freely interpreted.
In the Schnauzers breed, there are 3 size.
If we don't respect them we will have an only size from 30 cm to 70 cm.
It is more difficoult to get a small Schnauzer.
But I think if we will respect the proportions we will have BONE, SUBSTANCE, HEAD, COAT, BODY and not only size ! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

Regards Merylisa.
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Oberfidz on Fri May 08, 2009 8:29 am

I agree that its not unacceptable! But here in my small experience in the schnauzer world (only 6 years) I only one time saw that judge tooked a measures of all dogs in the show ring!
Ok, I can agree that there is a more to do with white minies because it's new breed and population are not so big.
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  Chris on Sun May 10, 2009 1:50 pm

Height.
English kennel Club breed standard Ideal height: dogs: 36 cms (14 ins); bitches: 33 cms (13 ins). Too small, toyish appearing dogs are not typical and undesirable.

Our Breed Standard in North America calls for 12-14", with a disqualification for anything outside of that. This would be 30.48-35.56 cm, if my conversion table is correct.

According to the FCI-standard:

SIZE AND WEIGHT
Height at withers: Dogs and bitches between 30 and 35 cm.
Weight: Dogs and bitches approximately 4 to 8 kg.

FAULTS :
• Over- or undersize up to 1 cm.

SERIOUS FAULTS :
• Over- or undersize by more than 1 cm but less than 2 cm.

DISQUALIFYING FAULTS :
• Over- or undersize by more than 2 cm.


Hi Again,
Thanks for the answers.
I am really surprised: taking into account English, North American and FCI breed standards for minis they is a huge variation in height from the smallest FCI 30cm to the tallest in English 36cm - 12 to 14 inches. In English breed standard too small is definitely a fault, but nothing stated about too tall!

A difference of nearly 6 cm. Rolling Eyes

It seems from your answers that showing a mini slightly under height is more expectable than showing a mini over height? Here in England it seems to be the opposite - showing a mini under 13" just wouldn't go anywhere!

I was very interested to see the FCI rules on height and allowances - 1cm each way.

Maybe more countries should measure at shows! Wink
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  des matins de cristal on Mon May 11, 2009 3:26 pm

In France jugde are ok for dog beetwen 30 to 35 after there is a tolerence of 2 cms up and donw (so 28 to 37) only if the dog is exceptionnal !
On show a lot oj judge take size of mini's but moins with standard or giant. but if a standard or giant look not in the size standard, judge take size o cause !
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Re: HEIGHT - Breed Standard.

Post  PiedPiper on Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:51 pm

In Sweden the judges measure the dogs very frequently (the Swedish judges at lest), and quite a few of them also measure all dogs when judging in other countries. Personally I think that is a good thing, and would welcome measuring from other judges as well. I am not very happy about the tendency to bigger than standard dogs not being "punished" for being out of standard.

I have a bitch which is at the minimum size, just over 30 cms, and it is more likely that she will be punished for being small than a dog which is 37 cm will be punished for being too big. Ok, I have paid to get the judge's opinion, but it would be nice if he/she stuck to the standard at least.
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