Black & Silver's Chest?

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Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Chris on Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:19 pm

Hi,
Black and Silver Chest hair.
How much of the white hair do people leave on and trim or clip off?

This is my black and silver Penny / Kristec Money Penny. Photo was taken December 2008.
Having seen this photo I was not happy as there seemed to be a gap of white at the bottom of the chest.



Since this show I have grown the white chest longer and am about to do final preparations for champion show a week today. scratch
Chris
PS - I know this stack shot is not great, but myself holding Penny did not notice front legs too far froward and OH taking shot didn't tell me!!!!!
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Szende on Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:55 pm

For our first shows I have groomed the chest the same way as you did, but I studied a lot other pictures and now I let the fur to grow, and make a round, full chest and I clip the front of the neck till the stern bone, on the sides as well, starting from the line of the ear.
I am also curious what other people say, I have seen that chest grooming is different than at p/s or black colors.
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Jo on Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:02 pm

I thought Karen (MSBritmor) would have replied to this one.

It's a difficult question for people who haven't seen Penny to be able to answer.

The idea with the chest is to see a good forechest, if they dog hasn't got one, then the hair is used to at least create the illusion of a good chest but if the dog has a good chest, you can take more hair off to show the dog has this.

If you haven't got the parting in the hair above the leg, leading to the sternum to use as a guidline, then use the middle of the front leg as a marker point, clipping away the hair to the outside to above the sternum in an inverted V shape and then up the throat (unless you are stripping the coloured part of the throat).

comb out the chest hair that is left and stand back from the dog - the shaping to do now depends on the real shape of the dogs forechest, how wide or narrow it is across the chest and as in your photo above, how the colour of the hair looks.
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:12 am

Jo wrote:I thought Karen (MSBritmor) would have replied to this one.

I did not respond because this is one point on which the North Americans and (most of) the rest of you (Europeans) will ****NEVER**** agree.

But since I have (sort of) been drawn into this conversation, I will say that here we want to see (in silhouette) a "straight" line down the front of the dog from the lower part of his neck all the way to the front of his toes. The sternum (breast bone) of the dog should be in front of (beyond) the forward point of the shoulder blades.







In any schnauzer, when I see too much hair in the wrong place(s), I can have only two assumptions. Either the person who groomed the dog doesn't know how to groom a dog to its best advantage, or he did it because he is trying to hide a fault in his dog.

One of the most important things about a schnauzer is that all parts of the dog should be in balance with the other parts. When too much hair is left on the front of the dog, it is no longer balanced. The dog then looks like it is all front, with no rear to propel it along, and standing still, it looks like it could fall on its face if a strong breeze blew up its rear end.

Sorry that some of you will not agree, but at least one of you asked<G>.

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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Jo on Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:06 am

I find it very interesting to find out the reasons behind why a dog is groomed a particular way, especially with trends in different countries. So would you say the american way is to give the dog a more terrier look to the front?
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Nina on Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:59 am

I agree what Karen is saying, even I don't live in America:)
Sometimes we leave too much hair in front, it doesn't look natural. And underline stops there, where front legs start. And fore chest seems to be from another dog.
I wish I had right words for explain this:scratch:

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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  MsBritmor on Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:59 am

Jo wrote:So would you say the american way is to give the dog a more terrier look to the front?

Our breed standard here says that Miniatures should resemble Standard Schnauzers. They also have clean fronts, and they are in our Working Group.
Standard Schnauzer Club of America

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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Chris on Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:53 pm

Hi,
Thank you for the replies. :-)
I ask as I have now tried both - I have always been known to clip all white chest off on black and silvers and have just a little black curved into and under chest.

It is new to me to grow chest out!
Half way through show preparation with alot more chest hair on, so will have to see how it looks. Only then will make a decision!
I have noticed alot of dogs here in the ring with far too much chest hair and I presume this is to hide a dog with little to no fore chest.
I have not been showing long, pepper and salt six years and black and silver about four. My grooming is self taught, but with alot of help and advise from fellow exhibitors.
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  MsBritmor on Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:16 pm

By the way, all the colors here are groomed identically as they compete against each other. I would suggest that, whichever way you decide to groom, you do them all the same.

It is bad enough that you have to show them separately... grooming each color differently will definitely seal their fate that they will each become "separate breeds" in Europe.


Last edited by MsBritmor on Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Jo on Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:46 pm

All 4 colours are shown together over here also!

chris, I'll bring my scissors on Friday Wink
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Chris on Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:49 am

Jo wrote:All 4 colours are shown together over here also!

chris, I'll bring my scissors on Friday Wink

Hi Jo,
Thanks, can you bring scissors, clippers and a lawn mower!!!! Very Happy

Ok, Personally I think I prefer the chests with little hair.
Will try and get some photos, you've all seen last December and no one has laughed yet! Will post some more after prep, see what you think?
All help and advice is most appreciated. Smile
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:50 am

Each to his own... but I think it makes the body look longer.

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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Chris on Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:04 pm

Hi,
Well I have to say after all that debating, most of the chest hair came off and Penny looked a great deal better.

In Junior Bitch, having not shown very well she was 5th out of nine - Judge doesn't like colours ( Black and Silvers, Blacks or whites)
.
So I was delighted with her and her chest.
New Avatar was taken at the show.

Chest hair should be taken off. Smile
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Jo on Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:36 pm

You should see the write up, it seems that certain class winners were b/s colour - even though they are a dark p/s. One comment even said the b/s colour of one dog could be better Very Happy
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:01 pm

Jo wrote:You should see the write up, it seems that certain class winners were b/s colour - even though they are a dark p/s. One comment even said the b/s colour of one dog could be better

That tells me that some of the SP there are getting too dark and starting to lose some of the banding in their coats. We have that same problem here (from crossing the colors). One should never have to guess what color a dog is.... Something VERY wrong there.

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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:22 pm

But I want to saw something....why looks always at the american standard??
America is not an FCI land.
They have another standard...
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:09 pm

D'el casa di Vita wrote:But I want to saw something....why looks always at the american standard??
America is not an FCI land.
They have another standard...

Okay! The FCI Breed Standard says:

Chest : Moderately broad, oval in diameter, reaching to the elbows. The forechest is distinctly marked by the point of the sternum.

"Distinctly marked by the point of the sternum." The point of the sternum, not hair sticking out, HIDING that sternum.

The American standard doesn't even mention the sternum, so some breeders here debate as to how much the dog needs. Those who don't care to see it have dogs with no reach, and they mince around the ring with short strides.... which I have also seen on some Euro dogs in videos. Of course, the Euro owner thought he was hiding the fact that his dog had no prosternum by covering it with hair, but it became evident as soon as that dog moved.

If a dog is put together well, he will move well. If he moves well, he is put together well. A working dog MUST have prosternum if it is to have reach.

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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Chris on Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:21 pm

Jo wrote:You should see the write up, it seems that certain class winners were b/s colour - even though they are a dark p/s. One comment even said the b/s colour of one dog could be better Very Happy

Hi,
Well if people will insist on mixing colours!!!!!

I don't care that the sire is a B/S Champion, of mixed parentage what do they expect other that dogs that may have good conformation but have terrible colours!!! Rolling Eyes

What is worse and I can't except is even an International Judge can't tell the difference between Pepper and salt or black and silver. Beckons the question leaving chest and breed standards out of it for a moment if judges are judging dogs or faces?

The answer to MsBritmor is yes over here they are STILL mixing pepper and salt with black and silvers, the colour this is producing is either an extremely dark pepper and salt which I believe is a fault or black and silvers that we see in the ring for about 12 months then they fade and are never seen again!

Why wont people listen or live and learn!
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  MsBritmor on Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:08 am

Chris wrote:The answer to MsBritmor is yes over here they are STILL mixing pepper and salt with black and silvers, the colour this is producing is either an extremely dark pepper and salt which I believe is a fault or black and silvers that we see in the ring for about 12 months then they fade and are never seen again!

Well, all I can say is I've been there and done that, and I will most likely not ever do it again. A number of years ago I was crossing the two colors back and forth (never SP to SP as I didn't want to lose the BS gene), and I got a couple dogs, one in particular, that I really didn't know what color it was. She was very black (and silver) and her coat was full of banded hairs. I registered her as a SP, but when I bred her to a BS, I got five BS puppies with no banding.

That was the last time I crossed those colors until a few years ago when I realized my BS had lost their working attitudes and joy in doing whatever I wanted to do. I still had one intact SP boy, and I used him and got it back, in spades. Peter, my SP, threw SIX BS in that litter, and since that breeding, I am occasionally fighting light undercoats now, but no banding.

I have never had any color problems crossing black to BS, except for fighting those light undercoats in some, but not all, of the offspring.

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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  snasapjasa on Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:18 pm

Very interesting to read about this colour mixing.
Becouse in the kennel club here in Iceland there are people fighting about it. Colour mixing is not banned here, and there are no rules about it.
So the only thing you can do as a breeder is sit and wach how it goes for those breeders who mix alot.
In the last show in iceland, we had many dogs attending the show who came from mixed litters, almost half of them. I think they were not wors than the other(in colour), exept for one that i could not tell the difrient from bs and ps(it came from mixed litter father ps/mother black(she was from bs father thou)!! It was strange to me that the judge gave him very promising(hes a pupp). And the day after they meet the judge, and the woman with ps(the dark one) was talking about her dog and how she wanted to breed from him in the future. But the Judge just shaked her head and said: " You should not use such a dark dog in your breeding".
Well if the judge did not see any reason for him to be breed from, why did she give him very promesing at the show????? Shocked .
The judges are here to help us find the best qualeties of our dogs....and this is not helping.
This dog had nice movemenst and was ok for his age. But in Iceland minitures are such a young breed here, and we have to take care of what we use in our breeding.
Maby to colour mix is not such a problem, im not an expert. And some of the breeders here, say that this is the only way for us to get new blood, becouse to import dogs to icleand is very expencive. But sometimes i Expiriance that the colour mixing is to get more colours. Expecialy from people that are not breeders, that are only thinking of getting one litter from theyr adorble Females Surprised


Last edited by snasapjasa on Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Esther on Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:42 pm

A think I know what dog you’re talking about, it’s the puppy from Bjarndis kennel. Im not surprised at all that the judge gave him very promising, she known’s the color. I have looked at the color and banding in that dog and it’s there! He is still just so young and for that show he was stripped down too late.

This dog will always be a darker, but he will have pepper and salt color if he´s groomed right. And if you read the FCI standard there´s talked about light grey to dark grey and this dog isn’t black, he is dark grey.

“The shades from dark iron grey to silver grey are all permitted. In all color variations there must be a dark mask, which should adapt harmoniously to the respective color. „

If the owner wants to breed from this dog, it’s NOT mine, the judges or your business.

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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  snasapjasa on Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:57 pm

No im not judging that dog. I totally trust the judge. But people in both the rehersal and the show did not see the diffrient between bs and this dog. that is a problem, but offcourse not my CONSERN and im happy that it isnt.


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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Ilovemydog on Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:20 pm

Well, snasapjasa, if you were actually present at the meeting with the judge, then you would know that she did not recommend breeding from this dog as yet, but also mentioned that it will take 3 generations of breeding from him to establish the colour properly. She explained also that she is not against colour mixing, but mixing with ps is tricky. There was not enough time at that meeting to go into it further.....

You and I along with most breeders in Iceland are only too aware that we need to try to keep the genepool as wide and solid as we can. My opinion is that while importing to Iceland is so expensive, we do not have the luxury of discriminating against colour mixing. We must also agree that care has to be taken while doing so, and that we have to expect trial and error as a result. Take the good with the bad. As for any breeder. All we can do is our best and take it as it comes.

The puppy that you mentioned is promising, he is not perfect, but the judge also told the handler that the colour will come, not to worry. No decision has been taken yet with regard to breeding from him in the future, as in my mind colour mixing again from him is not an option. There are too few ps miniatures here as of yet to even contemplate breeding from him.....

Anyway happy days....
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  snasapjasa on Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:36 pm

Geat, good luck to you. He is a nice boy. But we are new to this colour here, so it is ok for us to have opinum from diffrient breeders with expiriance. And my opinium is only from what i know about colour mixing, and that is not much i must tell you. But affcourse i can only judge what my eyes can see, so im sorry if you are offended, it was not my meaning at all, but i found him very dark, and if it is becouse of the grooming, then im looking forward to see him in the next show properly groomed Smile And i hope your boy will be a good induvidial for this colour .

So for this discussion anyhow.
Do you have any rules conserning colour mixing? Is it not good to mix ps with Bs at all. And what do you think about Ps and Black together, would it hurt the Black and so on. Ive heard that The ps is the most sesetive colour when mixing.

Im very curious.
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Re: Black & Silver's Chest?

Post  Jo on Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:45 pm

When you mix black with b/s or p/s you have to be prepared for any blacks in the litter to have more white on them, eg. white feet, chest, chin. You can see these types of markings on the b/s and p/s when they are born, before the leg hair pales out and blends in the white markings so I think it is worth making a note of these markings as they may appear later on if you breed to black.

As said before, fading undercoats are a problem when p/s is used on black and b/s.

Interested to hear MsBritmor mention that black to b/s has produced fading undercoats,
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