How many litters?

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How many litters?

Post  Elis on Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:10 am

I'm curious, since I'm entering the world of breeding Miniature Schnauzers.

How many litters do you as a breeder produce per year? How many per year do you find normal?

In your opinion, how many litters should a beginner produce?

After how many litters per year do you consider a kennel to be a puppy mill?


I just want your opinion since this is a very hot topic for some, not asking for rules or laws, just your opinion.


My point of view is, when you have to many litters over little time you can't really concentrate on what you are doing and how your litters will turn out. All good things come in good time.
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Re: How many litters?

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:40 pm

As I get older, I don't enjoy having puppies anymore. They are just too much work. (And I HATE whelping puppies!)

It is now getting to the point that I have a litter every 2-3 years. Three years ago was a case of looking at my dogs and realizing that my only "breedable" bitch was three years old and had never been bred. OOPS! So she was bred.

The next year was a case of her being in season when a very nice imported German black came to me for showing, and after I groomed him up, I decided that I really wanted to use him with her. Those puppies are now two years old, and one is pointed. (I was delighted when I discovered that German import went back to what was behind my foundation stock!)

I also have a BS bitch that was given to me by someone I mentored and she is now 3 and should be bred. It seems it is time to have another litter here....

Back in my "youth", I would have 1-3 litters a year, depending on how many puppies were in a litter. Socialization takes a LOT of time. I think anything approaching 20 puppies a year is WAY too many.

How many litters should a beginner have? NONE, if he/she doesn't have a good mentor and a good dog. Too many start out with dogs of inferior quality, and just produce more of the same. A beginner should save his money and buy the best bitch he can afford. Just because a dog is intact doesn't mean it should be bred.

I know a breeder here who some of us feel is a puppy mill. She started out with bad stock, and produced so many puppies that she was able to buy better dogs that some idiot (legitimate) breeder sold to her (in fact, sold her some really good dogs). Some of these dogs/offspring have now been shown and have finished championships here and in Canada. She still continues to crank out puppies. Five litters in two weeks is excessive by any standards (that information came off of her webpage a few years ago). She also used to breed her bitches every heat cycle, and started at six months; don't know if she still does, but it wouldn't surprise me. Those puppies got her off of welfare.

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Britmor Miniature Schnauzers


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Re: How many litters?

Post  Elis on Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:20 pm

Sad to see that there is only one person in this forum that has an opinion on this matter. (Except for me)

I can imagine having more than 2 or 3 litter per year can be really difficult. Whelping is lot of work, and taking time to socialize the puppies is really important for their temperment, and some don't have all the time in the world for that.

I had a Labrador litter in 2005 with nine puppies and geeezzz that was work. One a year with that amount of puppies is more than enough.

I'm planing to have only one or two litter per year in the future (and I will do my best to stick to that plan). My first litter will (hopefully) be born in September and I can't wait. But I've made sure that I'm not busy those two months so I can really but all my mind into it.

But having more litters is normal when you have a large kennel and maybe tons of people helping you, cleaning, whelping, socializing and etc.

I also find it really important to really focus on how your litter is turning out, temperment, comformation and etc. before you continue on the next one.

All good thing take time.....
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Randi's Ushabti on Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:04 pm

In belgium you are as an hobby breeder only allowed to have 2 litters a year. Until now I only had one litter a year and for the moment it is more than enough for me. It must stay an hobby and a litter ask a lot of time, not only for me, but for whole the family.
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Many or few??

Post  Myltan on Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:20 pm

Hi

This is a tricky question... Rolling Eyes

It all must depend on how many females you have, how much time and effort you are willing to put into the litters and last but not least how much time you have for the future owners of your puppies.

I think a responsible breeder is the one giving his/her heart and soul into EVERY puppy. Who is willing to sit over a cup of coffe and ansver all those question over and over again, who has time to answer even more questions on the phone and willing to help with coatcare and lifelong support. And all this disreguarding how many puppies you breed per year.

For me all this makes it impossible to breed more than 1 or 2 litters per year.

I think the numbers of litters per year is not the only criteria for a puppy mill. It all comes down to your efffort during your time with the pups and your commitment after they move to their new owners.

Good luck in your future breeding / Maria

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Re: How many litters?

Post  snasapjasa on Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:58 pm

I think that it is very importing to start slowly. As for me 1 litter at a time, and wait at least for a year to see the outcome from this combunation.
And to be able to study what you are doging, expecialy for beginners in the breed. Well i would concider myself a beginner, and still i had miniture for 4 years, and a week doesnt pass by without me looking into pedegrees, ore chatting online with more expirianced breeders and so on.
I think that expirianced breeder is more capeble of having more litters, becouse he ore she would have more insite of what they are doing. It is not good too produce many litters without expiriance.
In Iceland we have small population, and many breeders. The schnauzer Club here has advertisement almost every month. So this is a popular breed here, but i think tings will slow down soon. Most of the breeders here have only 1-3 litters Each year. We have a puppy mill called Dalsmynni, and luckily she does not have miniatures.
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Re: How many litters?

Post  RaggaGisla on Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:58 pm

This is very interesting topic.
For me, the number of litters does not compere to the number of puppies the breeder has pr. year. nor the number of times a bitch is breed or a stud is used. Evil or Very Mad (specially here in Iceland, We have alot of very good dogs and again and again some breeders use the same dog over and over again.)
You can have only 1-2 puppies in a litter. And are 3 litters pr. year then to many? then there are "only" 6 puppies. Or if you have big litters whit 5-7 puppies in a litter.. then you have 15-21 puppies pr. year..

And I think that this is VERY important
Myltan wrote. "It all must depend on how many females you have, how much time and effort you are willing to put into the litters and last but not least how much time you have for the future owners of your puppies.

I think a responsible breeder is the one giving his/her heart and soul into EVERY puppy. Who is willing to sit over a cup of coffe and ansver all those question over and over again, who has time to answer even more questions on the phone and willing to help with coatcare and lifelong support. And all this disreguarding how many puppies you breed per year." Smile

You can be a breeder that has only one litter pr. year and not take care off your puppy buyers.. and then you can have 3 litters pr. year and take really good care off your puppy buyers.
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Esther on Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:48 pm

Elis wrote:Sad to see that there is only one person in this forum that has an opinion on this matter. (Except for me)

In this forum are mostly serious breeders and a few hobby breeders.

You are a hobby breeder and that’s nothing wrong with that, but when you almost call majority of the breeders here a puppy mill because they have more than 1-2 litters a year, do your really think you will get any answers?

Esther


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Re: How many litters?

Post  Randi's Ushabti on Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:41 pm

Esther wrote:
Elis wrote:Sad to see that there is only one person in this forum that has an opinion on this matter. (Except for me)

In this forum are mostly serious breeders and a few hobby breeders.
Can hobby breeders not be serious? Twisted Evil
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Esther on Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:48 pm

hehe yes of course, but you know what I mean... what do you what to use as the opposite of hobby breeders?

Professional breeders are maybe a better word?

Esther


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Re: How many litters?

Post  Randi's Ushabti on Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:16 pm

I was jist joking, but Professional or Semi-Professional Breeders are I think indeed more appropriate names. Very Happy
And for me such breeders aren't necessary the same as puppy mills.


Last edited by Randi's Ushabti on Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: How many litters?

Post  RaggaGisla on Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:17 pm

When do you become a "Professional" and stop being "Semi-Professional" breeder?
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Randi's Ushabti on Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:50 pm

When do you become a "Semi-Professional" and stop being "hobby-breeder"?
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Elis on Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:33 pm

Esther wrote:
Elis wrote:Sad to see that there is only one person in this forum that has an opinion on this matter. (Except for me)

In this forum are mostly serious breeders and a few hobby breeders.

You are a hobby breeder and that’s nothing wrong with that, but when you almost call majority of the breeders here a puppy mill because they have more than 1-2 litters a year, do your really think you will get any answers?

Did I do that? Where?

I did nowhere state that a breeder is a puppy mill after producing more than 3 litters.

I was simply asking people for their opinion and I said mine and did nowhere call anyone a "puppy mill" breeder and where they thought the boundries lie.
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Grovelea on Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:44 pm

Neutral


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Re: How many litters?

Post  Jo on Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:58 pm

Elis wrote:I'm curious, since I'm entering the world of breeding Miniature Schnauzers.

How many litters do you as a breeder produce per year? How many per year do you find normal?

In your opinion, how many litters should a beginner produce?

After how many litters per year do you consider a kennel to be a puppy mill?


I just want your opinion since this is a very hot topic for some, not asking for rules or laws, just your opinion.


My point of view is, when you have to many litters over little time you can't really concentrate on what you are doing and how your litters will turn out. All good things come in good time.


Can you define to me what you call a puppy mill?

Many breeds were founded by large scale puppy breeders who produced top quality dogs every year. Are these puppy mills? Is a person who has one litter a year to pay for their holidays, kept in the shed at the bottom of the garden a puppy mill?


Numbers of puppies or litters bred to me is the last thing to tell the quality and ethics of a breeder.
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Elis on Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:44 pm

I did not plan to offend anyone, I just wanted a open discussion about the topic, and everyone is giving me great answers.

A puppy mill to me in general is a person that breeds way to many litters, way to many breeeds and doesn't show any progress in their breeding (making healtier and better types). Some one that is in it for the money. A breeder that dosen't seem to have any ethics and are dishonest to their buyers. Fake pedigrees and etc.

Puppy mills come in many forms, some more serious than others.

But this thread wasn't really meant to expose puppy mills are talk about them, I just wanted everyone thoughts on litter quantity and etc.
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Re: How many litters?

Post  AnnaD on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:46 am

Very interesting matter.

But since it has been conflicts in opinion I did read some statues and breeding aims on FCI homepage. And here are lines that I thought might relate to this matter.

This is in statues by FCI
(1) to protect the use, the keeping and the breeding of purebred dogs in the countries where the FCI has a member or a contract partner ; to support the non-profit exchange of dogs

So by this we can say breeding is always a hobby since it is not ment to be a profit out of your breeding. You may not have the breeding as an income. So if you have 2 breeding bitches that are young do you really need them to have puppies every year or twice a year ? It is not serving the breed at all if you do not know the outcome and how the puppies will mature, why come with another litter before you know the outcome of the first one.

In rules for breeding under the FCI which kennel clubs must operate

Dog traders and commercial dog breeders are not permitted to undertake breeding in a member country or contract partner of the FCI.

Here it is very clear you will not be a professional breeder because FCI does not prove of it. Commercial breeding is not allowed at all and dog trading cannot be a profession.
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Ilovemydog on Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:20 am

AnnaD wrote:Very interesting matter.

But since it has been conflicts in opinion I did read some statues and breeding aims on FCI homepage. And here are lines that I thought might relate to this matter.

This is in statues by FCI
(1) to protect the use, the keeping and the breeding of purebred dogs in the countries where the FCI has a member or a contract partner ; to support the non-profit exchange of dogs

So by this we can say breeding is always a hobby since it is not ment to be a profit out of your breeding. You may not have the breeding as an income. So if you have 2 breeding bitches that are young do you really need them to have puppies every year or twice a year ? It is not serving the breed at all if you do not know the outcome and how the puppies will mature, why come with another litter before you know the outcome of the first one.

In rules for breeding under the FCI which kennel clubs must operate

Dog traders and commercial dog breeders are not permitted to undertake breeding in a member country or contract partner of the FCI.

Here it is very clear you will not be a professional breeder because FCI does not prove of it. Commercial breeding is not allowed at all and dog trading cannot be a profession.

Hmm, I was not going to participate in this initially, but now I feel there must be some misunderstanding going on here. I think that realistically it is very hard to actually profit from responsible breeding, but in no way can it be illegal. How would the FCI monitor this? What would be the criteria to determine that a profitable breeder is actually an irresponsible one? To support the non profit exchange of dogs, does not mean that profitable exchange is forbidden, only that it is to be supported.

Another point of misunderstanding of the statutes (not statues) is the determination of "Dog traders and commercial dog breeders". In my mind they would be petshops or internet puppy sellers that do not discriminate on who they are selling for or to. No health checks are required or questions asked. That is a far cry from the breeders I like to call "professionals". In my mind a professional breeder does all the health checks, carefully chooses/plans their breeding plans, is realistic on his/her breeding stock with regards to strengths and weaknesses and tries to improve each generation, but still in keeping with the breeds standards. A professional will always make time for his customers and assist with the offspring, lifelong aftercare if you will. That is a profession in my mind because it requires dedication to a fault for years to come. In my mind a hobby breeder can come and go, flirt with the idea of breeding for a while, and then just stop.

It seems to me that far more is being construed/understood from these statutes than is intended and I think that basic understanding of what they are meant to portray is needed here.


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Re: How many litters?

Post  Elis on Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:37 am

Ilovemydog wrote:

Hmm, I was not going to participate in this initially, but now I feel there must be some misunderstanding going on here. I think that realistically it is very hard to actually profit from responsible breeding, but in no way can it be illegal. How would the FCI monitor this? What would be the criteria to determine that a profitable breeder is actually an irresponsible one?

Another point of misunderstanding of the statutes (not statues) is the determination of "Dog traders and commercial dog breeders". In my mind they would be petshops or internet puppy sellers that do not discriminate on who they are selling for or to. No health checks are required or questions asked. That is a far cry from the breeders I like to call "professionals". In my mind a professional breeder does all the health checks, carefully chooses their breeding plans, is realistic on his/her breeding stock with regards to strengths and weaknesses and tries to improve each generation, but still in keeping with the breeds standards. A professional will always make time for his customers and assist with the offspring, lifelong aftercare if you will. That is a profession in my mind because it requires dedication to a fault for years to come. In my mind a hobby breeder can come and go, flirt with the idea of breeding for a while, and then just stop.

I mostly agree with you. But isn't breeding always a hobby of ours, so we are all "hobby" breeders, but some take it more serious than others? I think we can all agree on this forum that we take breeding very serious and we all want to do our best. But there is always some that come and go, and stop.....

I have to say I'm really happy with this thread, we are all very level headed in our discussion and every one is making a great point with their posts.. keep them coming.
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Silfurskuggar on Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:06 pm

I have to agree with many on this matter, but one sentence from Ilovemydog I really liked "In my mind a hobby breeder can come and go, flirt with the idea of breeding for a while, and then just stop" Or as I thought when I read this, when they realize that there is more shit than money they quit Smile Breeding dogs has never been and will never be anything to make profit from, but to call it a hobby hmmm.... can't really agree with that either except when it is "hobby" with one litter from time to time. This is a dedication and WORK, often combined with bad talking and back stabbing if you are successful in your breeding Smile I also do agree with Jo, why is it that lot of people have to sit all day counting litters ? What has that to do with how good breeder you are ? Never figured that out myself anyway. When I breed I do that because I WANT to have that combination not for someone else to have it, I am also willing to keep all puppies from that litter if I can't find home for them, otherwise I would not have any litters at all, I am always willing to keep all my litters !!

So if that means that I am a puppy mill having had 4 litters this year, so be it. But what do you then call the breeder that has one female and mates her year after year and sometimes just with one male ? Isn't that what US calls BYB or back yard breeder ? Is that beter ?

Well anyway, I think that time will tell for all breeders, and in the end everyone has to stand or fall with their
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Elis on Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:15 pm

Silfurskuggar wrote:
But what do you then call the breeder that has one female and mates her year after year and sometimes just with one male ? Isn't that what US calls BYB or back yard breeder ? Is that beter ?

I would never call that person a breeder, nor is that breeding, that's just making puppies, and that's of course not better.

Yet again I did not say that a breeder is a puppy mill after producing more than three litters, anywhere, and a clearly said what a puppy mill is in my opinion.

I'm simply curious how many litters breeder people trust themselves to take care of and how many litters it normal to have to be able to take the best care of them.
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Silfurskuggar on Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:35 pm

Elis wrote:
Silfurskuggar wrote:
But what do you then call the breeder that has one female and mates her year after year and sometimes just with one male ? Isn't that what US calls BYB or back yard breeder ? Is that beter ?

I would never call that person a breeder, nor is that breeding, that's just making puppies, and that's of course not better.

Yet again I did not say that a breeder is a puppy mill after producing more than three litters, anywhere, and a clearly said what a puppy mill is in my opinion.

I'm simply curious how many litters breeder people trust themselves to take care of and how many litters it normal to have to be able to take the best care of them.

Of course that depends on how many are there to take care of dogs and litters, or I would think so at least. Here we are all involved in my kennel even thou the kennel name is only on my name Smile And we are 5 in the family (all over 18 ) that help each other with litters and socializing puppies, well 6 if I count my grandson in hehe..... and actually he is one of the best to socialize our puppies when they reach the right age, he is only 1.5 years and is so gently with both dogs and puppies Smile

I just think that we should be very carefull when we say things, it is so easy to missunderstand Smile
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Re: How many litters?

Post  Grovelea on Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:43 pm

silent


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Re: How many litters?

Post  Elis on Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:30 pm

Silfurskuggar wrote:
Elis wrote:
Silfurskuggar wrote:
But what do you then call the breeder that has one female and mates her year after year and sometimes just with one male ? Isn't that what US calls BYB or back yard breeder ? Is that beter ?

I would never call that person a breeder, nor is that breeding, that's just making puppies, and that's of course not better.

Yet again I did not say that a breeder is a puppy mill after producing more than three litters, anywhere, and a clearly said what a puppy mill is in my opinion.

I'm simply curious how many litters breeder people trust themselves to take care of and how many litters it normal to have to be able to take the best care of them.

Of course that depends on how many are there to take care of dogs and litters, or I would think so at least. Here we are all involved in my kennel even thou the kennel name is only on my name Smile And we are 5 in the family (all over 18 ) that help each other with litters and socializing puppies, well 6 if I count my grandson in hehe..... and actually he is one of the best to socialize our puppies when they reach the right age, he is only 1.5 years and is so gently with both dogs and puppies Smile

I just think that we should be very carefull when we say things, it is so easy to missunderstand Smile
You are so lucky to have all this people to help you, it's so important. It can be quite difficult if a person is on her own breeding and doesn't get support and help from their family members (not that it isn't impossible to do it on your own).


Last edited by Elis on Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Forgot to post the quote)
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Re: How many litters?

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