Reconising whites????

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Reconising whites????

Post  Chris on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:32 pm

Hi,
I am on a English forum, talking about whites.
Here in England the white are still not excepted or recognised! Crying or Very sad
Two out of our three schnauzer clubs have now last year, voted to get the colour white into our breed standard. We are now waiting for the kennel club to revise our breed standard!!!!!

Are there any countries out there that also STILL do not recognise the colour white???
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Amistar's on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:49 pm

Yes, in the land where is everyting possible... The USA... They think the white mini's are mixes of west highland terriers!!! and some other countries... Sad
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Jo on Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:36 pm

USA, Canada, Australia. Basically those not under the FCI.
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  MsBritmor on Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:52 pm

Amistar's wrote:Yes, in the land where is everyting possible... The USA... They think the white mini's are mixes of west highland terriers!!!

This was actually proven in at least one instance through DNA... in Ohio, if my memory is correct.

Since many breeders of weird colors here have been known to lie about the color of their dogs in order to get them registered easier, how can one trust them when they say anything?

A long story that I will try to make shorter.... many years ago I was duped out of some dogs that ended up in a puppy mill (the buyers lied to me about where the dogs were going, as they were "fronts" for the puppymiller). One of the dogs ended up in Canada with another "mass producer". It came to my attention that the dog was "apparently" producing white offspring, which is impossible as my dogs do NOT carry that gene. (I know this because I have a fairly tight pedigree and have done some inbreeding and never produced white in nearly 40 years of breeding.)

I wouldn't trust ANYONE in North America who produces white. They have all lied at some time or other, and a liar can never be trusted.

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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Chris on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:25 pm

Hi,
Thank you for your replies.
The discussion on whites continues on the other forum.

Now studying more than just my own breed standard:

English Kennel Club: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/167
Miniature Schnauzer / Utility

American Kennel Club:http://www.akc.org/breeds/miniature_schnauzer/index.cfm
Miniature Schnauzer / Terrier

FCI Standard: http://www.ispu.info/zwergschnauzer_183e.pdf
Miniature Schnauzer / Utility

I am finding quite a few differecnces not only on the question of whites!

Other than America and England are all other countries under FCI Rules?
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Randi's Ushabti on Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:43 am

I know Australia Isn't a FCI country
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Chris on Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:54 pm

Randi's Ushabti wrote:I know Australia Isn't a FCI country

Hi,
Thanks.
So now it's England, America and Australia, that don't except whites and are not under FCI rules. Any more????

I was interested to know that in the schnauzers home land of Germany the first white got it's stud book number in 1968 - A very good year.
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Jo on Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:11 pm

Canada is another.
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Chris on Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:18 pm

Jo wrote:Canada is another.

Hi Jo,
This link confused me about Canada, so wasn't sure?
http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/terri ... er_fci.htm

But you know how blonde I am!!! happy happy
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Jo on Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:07 pm

Chris wrote:
Jo wrote:Canada is another.

Hi Jo,
This link confused me about Canada, so wasn't sure?
http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/terri ... er_fci.htm

But you know how blonde I am!!! happy happy

That is a broken link.

Don't forget in Northern America (the continent) they have various kennel clubs who will register dogs and hold shows - you can even show schnauzers clipped under on system - wouldn't that save us the bother of handstripping Very Happy
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Alberto on Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:56 pm

MsBritmor wrote:This was actually proven in at least one instance through DNA... in Ohio, if my memory is correct.

Excuse me, but this doesn't necessarily demonstrate that ALL White Minis in USA are the result of a cross-breeding. If the white mutation occured in Germany, it can happen anywhere in the world, but especially in USA where Miniature Schnauzer population is huge...

Besides this, it must be pointed out that in current top White Minis you cannot see any trace of supposed cross-breeding (e.g. short legs, long body, short head etc...) - especially in the American ones who are probably some of the best ones- and the best specimens of this colour are just beautiful Miniature Schnauzers.

If the country of origin of the breed recognized them, who are they to disagree? scratch

On the other side, AKC recognized some poodle colors even if they are not accepted by the home country of the breed (France)... Shocked
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:44 pm

Chris wrote:So now it's England, America and Australia, that don't except whites and are not under FCI rules. Any more????

Canada is not, and the Philippines does *BOTH* (AKC *and* FCI... and has shows for both). Now THAT is insane. A country should have only ONE breed standard, whatever it is.

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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:24 pm

Alberto wrote:
MsBritmor wrote:This was actually proven in at least one instance through DNA... in Ohio, if my memory is correct.

Excuse me, but this doesn't necessarily demonstrate that ALL White Minis in USA are the result of a cross-breeding. If the white mutation occured in Germany, it can happen anywhere in the world, but especially in USA where Miniature Schnauzer population is huge...

Besides this, it must be pointed out that in current top White Minis you cannot see any trace of supposed cross-breeding (e.g. short legs, long body, short head etc...) - especially in the American ones who are probably some of the best ones- and the best specimens of this colour are just beautiful Miniature Schnauzers.

If the country of origin of the breed recognized them, who are they to disagree?

On the other side, AKC recognized some poodle colors even if they are not accepted by the home country of the breed (France)...

First of all, my post had to do with the truthfulness (or lack thereof) of certain breeders here. BUYER BEWARE!

I have seen schnauzer offspring from at least one mixed breeding. Schnauzers are *VERY* predominant for their features. The sire of that litter was unknown, but some of those SP puppies looked exactly like purebred schnauzers. Others had a fair amount of white in their coats (particolors, if you will). I have also seen other crossbred dogs who were very schnauzery. It would be very easy to get a schnauzer-looking dog in a couple generations.

The country of origin did not recognize whites willingly. Whites were recognized there because of a lawsuit. Prior to that, those puppies were destroyed, up until the 1940s when one woman fought to keep them alive. She perpetuated that color by breeding to a supposedly white Standard Schnauzer of unknown registry (UNKNOWN REGISTRY!)

In this country, AKC has nothing to do with recognizing colors; it is the parent clubs of each breed who makes the decisions of what their breed should look like. In our case, it is the American Miniature Schnauzer Club. AKC *does* register dogs that they feel are purebred after they look at a couple photos that must be submitted with the registration application, and after seeing some of those dogs in person, I can tell you that whoever works at AKC is CRAZY! I think that all parent clubs would be DELIGHTED if this practice was ended; I know that ours would be.

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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:29 pm

Translation (from German) from Schnauzer-Pinscher by Dr. Hans Raeber

The White Miniature Schnauzer


As the black color in Schnauzers can develop out of different genetics, so can the white one. But we have to say right away, that there is no such thing as white color! There is no white color in the dog's hair.

The white hair is basically colorless, it only looks white because of the
shaft of the hair has little hollow airpockets which for our eyes have the
same effect as the white foam on a clear liquid. That says that the dog who
is white doesn't have any pigments in his coat. Obviously there are other
ways as to how the white color can develop through mutation.

Genetically the white miniature schnauzers belong in the Albino-Series. There
are different possibilities to that. Malcolm B. Willis assumes the gen C(d) will stop the development of pigmentation. But because there is the gen C involved, which can build pigmentation, pigmentation will be built. You can see it as dark nose, dark eyes and dark nails.

Little (1957) assumed that a white coat and dark nose would develop if you
double the chinchilla factor c(ch). At the same time yellow pigmentation can be developed and cause these animals to have yellowish markings. In this case the white miniature schnauzers have sometimes a reddish-yellowish line running down their backs, but no true yellowish marks.

A 3rd side of this white coloration develops when you double the
"merle-factor"(homozygot). These "white tigers" have mostly eye- and
ear problems which to this extent don't develop in the schnauzers.

The last form of the white colorations are the full-albinos who can't
develop any coloration because the factor C is missing. They have
flesh-colored noses, red eyes and light colored toenails. They are excluded
from breeding.

White miniature schnauzers developed several times as mutations from black parents. For example, the President of the Swiss Schnauzer and Pinscher Club, A. Schmid, had 2 snow white puppies out of an all black mating. Because this color wasn't desired, the puppies weren't raised. Similar things might have happened to other breeders as well.

I also saw almost white dogs who were bred out of "washed out" salt and
peppers. The parents had white heads and legs and almost white sides, only
over the neck and back they had a faint blackish line. Those dogs are
although undesired, but I think it would be possible to raise an all white
miniature schnauzer which would have in my opinion yellowish marks.

The first breeder who was determined to breed and raise white
miniature schnauzers was the 84-year old and still very active Irmgard Sauer in
Ludwigsburg. Mrs. Sauer started her own kennel "v. Grunewald" with her black
female "Amsel v.d. Burg Heldenstein". The bitch was mated in 1946 with an all black male "Vastl v.d. Burg Heldenstein" and they produced 3 black males and one bitch, "Asta v. Grunewald". How far there was incest involved is not clear since not all the paperwork was complete and both parents were from the same kennel.

On the 13th of February 1948 the bitch "Asta" and the male "Zecher
v. Schoenhardt" had 4 puppies; one of them was a snow white bitch. Mrs. Sauer
decided to keep and raise the white bitch and start an all white breed. But
her happiness was denied. The club wished the death of the little white
bitch, because her color wasn't recognized. In their opinion it was a "garbage product" of the schnauzer breed and the danger, as Max Kemp 3 years later wrote, was that the white schnauzer would develop "strange-colored, spotted and wrong-looking schnauzer types", which is totally wrong and only resulted out of misunderstanding of basic genetics.

They threatened to expel Mrs. Sauer out of the club if she didn't change her
mind. "They will never pass the FCI", wrote Max Kemp in October 1951, and Best,
1st President of the PSK in 1948, advised Mrs. Sauer that it would be "best to send the white bitch to dog heaven".

Mrs. Sauer didn't let that stop her; she raised little "Dixie" and mated
her later with the white standard schnauzer "Tell v. Bad Cannstadt", whom
we don't know anything about since he wasn't registered in the studbook.
Out of this mating there were 4 white puppies, "Blanco, Bianka, Blanche, and
Blondie". A second mating also brought 4 white puppies.

The 2 siblings out of the first litter, "Blanko" and "Bianka" were mated, which
produced 5 white puppies (C-litter). "Bianka" out of the 2nd litter and "Edie" were mated and produced in 1951 the white D-litter.

Out of the C-litter the bitch "Comtess" was mated with the black "Graf
v. Grunewald", producing 3 white and 2 black puppies, which means that
"Graf" also carried the white in his genes, too.

Now they had developed a breed stock which could be used to raise white
miniature schnauzers. But the PSK still wouldn't recognize them. They expelled Mrs. Sauer and had her in and out of court. We don't want to dwell on that, as often in breeding dogs it wasn't about the dogs, but humans and their opinions.

After 1968 there are litter registrations and pedigrees for white dogs,
which are still today internationally recognized.

If they will survive, we will see.

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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Alberto on Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:15 am

MsBritmor wrote:
The country of origin did not recognize whites willingly. Whites were recognized there because of a lawsuit. Prior to that, those puppies were destroyed, up until the 1940s when one woman fought to keep them alive. She perpetuated that color by breeding to a supposedly white Standard Schnauzer of unknown registry (UNKNOWN REGISTRY!)

I guess this is almost the same story of the Black & Silver colour: in the beginning destroyed, then appreciated & bred by some against the club in Switzerland & America and in the end officially recognized by PSK & FCI after years of controversy. But while Black/Silver has been promptly accepted and appreciated by American Club (probably before PSK), why not whites? I really cannot understand. Puppy-mills who do cross-breeding are really a serious problem, but cannot be used as excuse not to recognize Whites.

Furthermore, the fact that White Minis have been officially recognized after a lawsuit doesn't make them a "second-class" breed; in the FCI is a breed like anyone else with full rights.

The other document posted from Raber book shows that white colour is - at least in german case - a spontaneous mutation that nothing has to do with cross-breeding. All dog breeds consist in fixing one or more mutations that create the breed type. If the mutations are not associated with health issues, I think we must treasure them - as man always did with domestic animals in the centuries.
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Randi's Ushabti on Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:26 am

Alberto wrote:
MsBritmor wrote:
The country of origin did not recognize whites willingly. Whites were recognized there because of a lawsuit. Prior to that, those puppies were destroyed, up until the 1940s when one woman fought to keep them alive. She perpetuated that color by breeding to a supposedly white Standard Schnauzer of unknown registry (UNKNOWN REGISTRY!)

I guess this is almost the same story of the Black & Silver colour: in the beginning destroyed, then appreciated & bred by some against the club in Switzerland & America and in the end officially recognized by PSK & FCI after years of controversy. But while Black/Silver has been promptly accepted and appreciated by American Club (probably before PSK), why not whites? I really cannot understand. Puppy-mills who do cross-breeding are really a serious problem, but cannot be used as excuse not to recognize Whites.

Furthermore, the fact that White Minis have been officially recognized after a lawsuit doesn't make them a "second-class" breed; in the FCI is a breed like anyone else with full rights.

The other document posted from Raber book shows that white colour is - at least in german case - a spontaneous mutation that nothing has to do with cross-breeding. All dog breeds consist in fixing one or more mutations that create the breed type. If the mutations are not associated with health issues, I think we must treasure them - as man always did with domestic animals in the centuries.
Indeed, the PSK recognized Whites and Blak& Silver at the same time in 1968 Wink

Here you can read how I think about the most beautifull colour of Mini Schnauzers: http://www.randisushabti.be/White angel
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Alberto on Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:54 am

Randi's Ushabti wrote:

Here you can read how I think about the most beautifull colour of Mini Schnauzers: http://www.randisushabti.be/White angel

Thank you for the link! thank you Interesting portrait of the breed, especially because it's not that easy to find something detailed about WM temperament in the web! Smile
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Xtravaschnauza on Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:09 pm

I'm starting to think Alberto is my secret twin separated at birth...

The way the white mutation works genetically on minis, is very similar or exactly the same by function on many other species of animals as well. To name a couple, rabbits and mice.

For instance the Netherland Dwarf rabbits have albino as well as blue-eyed white. BEW is by no means blank genetically, but the allele for BEW simply "covers" all the other colour attributes the animal inherits. (On the other hand, albino can actually carry almost any colour genes because the homozygous albino simply hides these in the phenotype, you can only know more about the phenotype by crossing an albino over to a coloured animal.)

While mixing breeds in puppy mills is a problem in any given country, I really hope that non-FCI-countries start recognizing whites as soon as possible. To add one more reason to the long list of ones already mentioned, the non-FCI judges have to judge whites in FCI-countries anyway. An Irish judge will have to judge whites to the best of his/her ability when judging in Finland etc. Why not take the white variety for what it is and start doing that in their native country as well. I suppose it would take time and dedication of those interested in whites to influence the local Schnauzer club (AMSC etc.).
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Alberto on Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:25 pm

Xtravaschnauza wrote:I'm starting to think Alberto is my secret twin separated at birth...

The way the white mutation works genetically on minis, is very similar or exactly the same by function on many other species of animals as well. To name a couple, rabbits and mice.

For instance the Netherland Dwarf rabbits have albino as well as blue-eyed white. BEW is by no means blank genetically, but the allele for BEW simply "covers" all the other colour attributes the animal inherits. (On the other hand, albino can actually carry almost any colour genes because the homozygous albino simply hides these in the phenotype, you can only know more about the phenotype by crossing an albino over to a coloured animal.)

While mixing breeds in puppy mills is a problem in any given country, I really hope that non-FCI-countries start recognizing whites as soon as possible. To add one more reason to the long list of ones already mentioned, the non-FCI judges have to judge whites in FCI-countries anyway. An Irish judge will have to judge whites to the best of his/her ability when judging in Finland etc. Why not take the white variety for what it is and start doing that in their native country as well. I suppose it would take time and dedication of those interested in whites to influence the local Schnauzer club (AMSC etc.).

Great! Smile

I am too perfectly agree with you about the judges' problem! Smile

I just hope that the approach of breed & kennel clubs to questions like this in the year 2009 could be a little more technical-based & respectful of animal welfare than in the past centuries...in USA & Canada as in Italy, where puppies of different color than their parents are still discriminated, inspite genetics evidence... Sad
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Jo on Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:50 pm

Xtravaschnauza wrote:I'm starting to think Alberto is my secret twin separated at birth...

The way the white mutation works genetically on minis, is very similar or exactly the same by function on many other species of animals as well. To name a couple, rabbits and mice.

For instance the Netherland Dwarf rabbits have albino as well as blue-eyed white. BEW is by no means blank genetically, but the allele for BEW simply "covers" all the other colour attributes the animal inherits. (On the other hand, albino can actually carry almost any colour genes because the homozygous albino simply hides these in the phenotype, you can only know more about the phenotype by crossing an albino over to a coloured animal.)

While mixing breeds in puppy mills is a problem in any given country, I really hope that non-FCI-countries start recognizing whites as soon as possible. To add one more reason to the long list of ones already mentioned, the non-FCI judges have to judge whites in FCI-countries anyway. An Irish judge will have to judge whites to the best of his/her ability when judging in Finland etc. Why not take the white variety for what it is and start doing that in their native country as well. I suppose it would take time and dedication of those interested in whites to influence the local Schnauzer club (AMSC etc.).

Ireland is now, of course a part of the FCI and judges the breed under it's sepparate colours. I would think that N.Irish judges would be judging in both Southern and northern ireland and able to see the very few white minis that are in that country (not sure if any native owned whites have made it into the show ring yet over there)

In the UK the whites can and are shown in with the other colours, but this system does allow a judge to show a preference for a colour (and some do!!) over other colours who may have better breed type but on the other side of the coin, it does mean judges in this country can and do see whites in the ring.

There was a comment made in our breed papers recently about a couple of whites who gained some success in the show ring recently. These dogs now having stud book numbers also gives them life time qualification to Crufts.

We will now have an odd situation as, given that Gill placed a white exhibit third in each open class, we will now have ‘whites’ in the Stud Book. It seems somewhat perverse to me that any dog of a colour not mentioned in the Standard for that breed should appear in the KC’s prestigious Stud Book. I wonder if the KC fully appreciated this outcome when it passed the buck to the judge of the day with guidance that an improper colour should be treated as a fault (presumably just like any other fault) and the dogs present should be judged according to merit.
as taken from the breed notes for miniature schnauzers http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/28-MSC
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  jellun on Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:17 pm

I had twice a lot of fun showing my whites in UK at Crufts.
And I have feeling that judges and public slowly get used to this new colour.
I guess that it will happen quite soon that whites will be finally recognized by Kennel Club.

Star's of White Night Picasso (Xebec Ballack & Im White Dream v. Hella-Hof) was winning BIS junior at European Winner Show in Dublin under Irish Judge. I hope it will have also some political effect Cool

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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Alberto on Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:37 pm

jellun wrote:I had twice a lot of fun showing my whites in UK at Crufts.
And I have feeling that judges and public slowly get used to this new colour.
I guess that it will happen quite soon that whites will be finally recognized by Kennel Club.

Star's of White Night Picasso (Xebec Ballack & Im White Dream v. Hella-Hof) was winning BIS junior at European Winner Show in Dublin under Irish Judge. I hope it will have also some political effect Cool


This is a very big win and will surely be a great sponsor for the breed in UK! Smile

This white boy is really amazing! Smile
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  AnnaD on Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:42 pm

Very nice portrait Arnaud cheers
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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  MsBritmor on Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:54 pm

Alberto wrote:
The other document posted from Raber book shows that white colour is - at least in german case - a spontaneous mutation that nothing has to do with cross-breeding. All dog breeds consist in fixing one or more mutations that create the breed type. If the mutations are not associated with health issues, I think we must treasure them - as man always did with domestic animals in the centuries.

Just curious.... Does Germany (FCI) now recognize white Dobermans, white Boxers, and white German Shepherds? Are they shown in Europe along with their colored versions?

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Re: Reconising whites????

Post  Jo on Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:08 pm

Aren't white GSDs registered and shown as Swiss White Shepards?
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