The Grooming of Blacks

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The Grooming of Blacks

Post  MsBritmor on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:46 am

So I have dabbled in blacks twice over the years. I didn't like the temperaments I got the first time around, so I stopped breeding them. Two years ago, a German import came to stay with me briefly so that I could show him for his owner, and I had a litter of blacks from him. (He was homozygous.)

I started rolling coats on the three males (two last year and third this year), and have been taking Coat Kings to the three bitches occasionally. I do plan to strip the bitches down totally. (Still playing grooming catch-up here after my surgery a few months ago...) Last year I did strip out the leg hair on a couple of the bitches, and over the winter was raking through Cruise's legs to try to improve their color a bit (and now I am trying to wish them longer/thicker since we have six shows coming up in August). A few years ago at our Montgomery County shows, someone from Sweden(?) showed me how to pull the longest leg hairs, and I have done that on occasion with my black dogs.

So my question is... how/what do most of you do when grooming your blacks for show? And when do you start? I think in the future I will pull the legs of my black puppies down no later than three months of age. Almost all of the dogs that I show I put into rolled coats, and I do strip everything on them. I guess it is more the legs I am wondering about. I need to learn how to "fine-tune" them. It seems that when I get going on them, it is either scissor or pull too much out!

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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  MsBritmor on Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:18 pm

Any takers on this subject of what to do with the leg hair on blacks?

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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  snasapjasa on Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:55 pm

What i do is pull a litle at a time to get the leg hair more black. Im so lucky with my Berlin, she does not have much undercoat, so her leg hairs have alwais been black, but with a dark gray toned undercoat the litle she has, and i take it off with the undercoat kniwe that i have.
The blacks with lots of leg hair tend to be more brownish, and this is more work, in last show i had one like that, but hes a puppy and the blacks have more of this brownish colour when they are pupps. Well the judge said to me last time to pull them off regulary and it will come out black.
Thats what i know.
Ive always taken my dogs to a dog groomer, so maby thay have more tips, i will ask for you next time i go;)
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  MsBritmor on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:33 pm

Well, mine have LOTS of undercoat, and once I start pulling, it is hard for me to stop. That is why I thought stripping those legs totally out as puppies might work better since mine are so slow-maturing. It almost seemed like the brown got ahead of me when I just stripped the longest hairs. (That undercoat thing again, I guess...)

Anyone else?

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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:34 pm

I never strip the legs from my blacks.
Chesna is now almost 9 years and a litlle bit grey on the legs.
My experience is if you strip the legs,you get hard hiar but not so many hair.
I have it done with my male Elmo and al his hair was away and I get so hard hair that it breaks.
And it is grey on the legs,he is now 4 years old Embarassed

On the body I only strip the undercaot out and always some hard hair,every week....

And I think that the first year is the most in importment to strip him every week.
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:39 pm

I think that a black mini has brown legs or not.
Most of my black are very black on the legs,and I am very happy with that.
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  des matins de cristal on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:39 pm

I do as Marian,
i never strip the legs of my dogs.
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  des matins de cristal on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:41 pm

D'el casa di Vita wrote:I think that a black mini has brown legs or not.
Most of my black are very black on the legs,and I am very happy with that.

Yes and it's very important to conserve it !
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  MsBritmor on Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:43 am

I had excellent color with my blacks the first time around, but I only bred to my best-colored BS. My 12-year-old black bitch is still pretty dark, and she has been clippered for years, and her 10-year-old son is the same.

This time I am dealing with the injection of my lighter undercoated SP in the pedigree, so the color ranges from good in two to not-so-good in one, and a couple in-between. It is those in-between ones I am trying to figure out how to deal with.

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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  D'el casa di Vita on Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:12 pm

Yes that is,i think,the problem with the black...the other colors in the pedigree Surprised
Here in holland we can't breed with dogs where other colors,over 3 generation,in the pedigree....
But here they don't look always so good on the pedigree,there was a BS female from two black dogs and she get a pedigree....strange people here in the netherlands No
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  des matins de cristal on Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:31 pm

genectic ...
i know a litter beetwen 2 blacks and all dogs are blacks on pedigree on 4 generations on the 2 parents but one pup salt and pepper !
the color gene come from a long way !
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  MsBritmor on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:10 am

I can top that one...

My first schnauzer was a black-and-silver, my color of choice. There were undoubtedly other BSs that popped up in litters before her, but I traced her pedigree back to the 1930's before I found a BS ancestor. ALL before her were SP until I got back to the 1930's... nearly 40 years of SP dogs carrying BS before she was whelped.

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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  Jo on Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:22 am

What was her colour like? did it last long or fade quickly?
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  Jo on Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:23 am

Actually, going back to topic (sorry!) does anyone strip the black hair on the legs of a b/s? I do tend to run a stripping knife through the black.
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  MsBritmor on Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:37 am

Jo wrote:What was her colour like? did it last long or fade quickly?

Actually, she had excellent color, and it didn't start lightening a bit until she was two. It wasn't much, but it was enough to get me learning how to strip a dog. SEVEN HOURS it took me to strip out that first dog... and she wasn't big either<G> (I WANTED a BS; I PAID for a BS; I WILL HAVE A BS!<G>) That dog started a LOT in my life... really changed it, I would have to say.




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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  MsBritmor on Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:44 am

Jo wrote:Actually, going back to topic (sorry!) does anyone strip the black hair on the legs of a b/s? I do tend to run a stripping knife through the black.

I never did until Finn went to Italy and a comment was made that I needed to get out some of the undercoat in his legs. I won't say that I do it all the time, but I do rake through the black occasionally on a dog if it has lightened... usually in the tub now with my grooming stone while the dog is soaped up.

One thing I *always* do, however, is work the coat on the underside of the dog. The legs aren't as important to me since we chalk them up anyway, although I myself do not chalk into the black anymore (I used to... see photo below of Sunny). I DO want the underside to be as black as I can get it.

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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  Szende on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:45 pm

I strip out the longest fur on the legs, not much, but every week. One have to be patient to get the best black colour, it takes time until the new grows to the proper length. So I have on my dog short stronger fur and I hope with time the structure will be harder and the color stronger.

My b/s has also p/s ancestors, I realy was curious how can a b/s born after 4 or more generation of p/s. Unfortunately I see the black fading out at the back of the ears, not the top, only the base. I am really curious how could I change it back to black, I tried stripping it out but I don't get pure black even after this :(
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  Gast on Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:48 pm

Is the dog grey on ears? I think you will have no success by stripping grey parts, only brown can be improved to black. In most cases it´s genetic. But if you are feeding biotin, some greys become more black again, but be carefully it can damage the liver. Maybe you try feeding carrots daily, just try, some dogs getting better colour, other become more brown.

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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  Jo on Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:24 pm

Szende wrote:I strip out the longest fur on the legs, not much, but every week. One have to be patient to get the best black colour, it takes time until the new grows to the proper length. So I have on my dog short stronger fur and I hope with time the structure will be harder and the color stronger.

My b/s has also p/s ancestors, I realy was curious how can a b/s born after 4 or more generation of p/s. Unfortunately I see the black fading out at the back of the ears, not the top, only the base. I am really curious how could I change it back to black, I tried stripping it out but I don't get pure black even after this Sad

I find that this part of the ears is often the first place to start fading on a dog that is going to loose the colour.
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  MsBritmor on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:00 pm

Szende wrote:My b/s has also p/s ancestors, I realy was curious how can a b/s born after 4 or more generation of p/s. Unfortunately I see the black fading out at the back of the ears, not the top, only the base. I am really curious how could I change it back to black, I tried stripping it out but I don't get pure black even after this

Genetics can be a VERY tricky thing. If it is something one does NOT want, it will haunt one forever. If wanted, it can be lost in a heartbeat. The black-and-silver coloring is like that. It can be lost in one generation of color-crossing, if one isn't careful, which is why I always cross my SP and blacks with BS so that they will carry that recessive gene. And then there are those like my first bitch where that gene was carried down for multiple generations over decades.

Keep stripping out those ears. It always surprises me how many people do not strip ears, cheeks, or fronts (or butts on black) on schnauzers. Generally speaking, in most dogs, areas will lighten if not stripped continuously.

Back to blacks, the topic at hand. How many here strip butts... or don't?

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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  Nina on Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:46 pm

When you have good colour and good texture of hair, you don't need to strip these areas. But you may have bad color turn little bit better by stripping these parts. My b/s have fading. i've now sripped his rear, tail and ears and there is less grey and more black. And one of my blacks it helped too. But the color will never be the same as one who has good color by birth.

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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  jellun on Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:22 pm

I am stripping legs of blacks, black&silver and peppers.

On 2 last its not big deal...its only dark part where we anyway cut hair to hide elbows and make form.

With blacks its complicated...in general it helps to improve colour and quality, but not for long time. Hair can brake down and it takes long to grow it to show condition. Sometimes brushing with trimming knife helps more gently...
But its worth trying and experimenting when dog is not registered for dogshows next 4-6 months. Every hair is unique...may be you will have luck!
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Re: The Grooming of Blacks

Post  Szende on Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:05 am

thank you all for your answers, yesterday I stripped agin and then cut down the lenght, becuase I didn't strip it to skin, I found that it is not so obvious if the hair is as short as possible...

I do strip the ears, the top of the head, chest and cheecks and even the silver under the tail, it is true that I do only 2-3 time a year, but I have good colour and structure there.
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